5 ms·

The other strategies are clearly not working though. Birth rates have at best stayed steady or declined.

thatjoeoverthr 4y ago
What if they’re actually dumb and we need other other strategies? Something to think about before banning the pill. As a parent I find the environment extremely child-hostile. I don’t want to go into it here, I’m just pointing out there’s a lot of work one could do besides blocking a certain gender from equal access to birth control pills.
- Mirioron 4y ago
  >Something to think about before banning the pill. Regardless whether the strategies are bad or not, banning contraceptives should never be on the table. >As a parent I find the environment extremely child-hostile. It might be child-hostile, but is how child-hostile the environment is actually a consideration? The situation for having children has never been better, but birthrates are some of the lowest they have ever been.
everdrive 4y ago
The rough transition aside, would it be so bad to return to lower population levels? The only thing I'm sad about is that I won't live to see the population decline rather than increase.
- zmgsabst 4y ago
  Yes — it’s absolutely psychotic to hope for a mass loss of human life and the decline of our species. There’s no reason to think it would make things better — and many to think a massive population decline would come with a technology regression and stall of our advancement. I think such ideas are a form of mental illness, often stemming from delusions about the world.
  - GekkePrutser 4y ago
    Not a decline but a stabilisation. That's really what's needed to make our planet sustainable. Right now the absolute worst thing you can do for the environment is to have a child as a westerner. And we're not hoping for loss of life. Just a more balanced population in the long term. We can't keep growing until every square meter of this planet is covered with people, I'm sure that's clear. Eventually resources will be constrained too much and massive wars over control of the scraps will be inevitable. Which will solve the problem of overpopulation, sure. But it'll be better to gradually reduce population growth to zero and finally reach a balance with our environment. Nobody is speaking of a massive decline.
    - xienze 4y ago
      > Right now the absolute worst thing you can do for the environment is to have a child as a westerner. Just out of curiosity, are you also opposed to immigration from third world countries into first world ones?
      - GekkePrutser 4y ago
        No I'm not. I am opposed to unlimited immigration though due to the shock effect on society.
        xienze 4y ago
        Surely you can see where the issue is, don’t you? How can a westerner having a baby be any worse than an immigrant making their way to a western country, from a carbon footprint perspective? To me you can’t logically say that westerners having babies is a problem and still be OK with any amount of immigration, at least if the environment is your argument.
        GekkePrutser 4y ago
        That's not really an immigration issue but a distribution of wealth issue IMO. Something we also have to reduce to have a more sustainable world. The issue is that the source of our wealth externalises the cost to the environment. The problem is really with our western society, not the people. It's pretty likely African immigrants can teach us a thing or two about living more in harmony with nature.
- Mirioron 4y ago
  As a species on the planet? No, there's nothing bad about it. But it's going to be bad politically. It will shake up the power of countries when population numbers change and no country wants to give to power.
GekkePrutser 4y ago
They should keep going down if we want to save this planet. Our population growth is unsustainable. It'll cause some demographic issues in the short term but we'll just have to deal with that.
- colechristensen 4y ago
  Advanced economies are only growing via immigration, there is no population growth through reproduction. Also the planet will be just fine, it is us we’re worried about.
  - GekkePrutser 4y ago
    If you define the planet as just a rock spinning around the sun then yes. I would define it as a complex ecosystem of interconnected species and we're doing a lot of damage to that that goes far beyond ourselves.
lvturner 4y ago
We tried nothing and it didn’t work! Best give up!

What if they’re actually dumb and we need other other strategies? Something to think about before banning the pill. As a parent I find the environment extremely child-hostile. I don’t want to go into it here, I’m just pointing out there’s a lot of work one could do besides blocking a certain gender from equal access to birth control pills.

Mirioron 4y ago
>Something to think about before banning the pill. Regardless whether the strategies are bad or not, banning contraceptives should never be on the table. >As a parent I find the environment extremely child-hostile. It might be child-hostile, but is how child-hostile the environment is actually a consideration? The situation for having children has never been better, but birthrates are some of the lowest they have ever been.

everdrive 4y ago

The rough transition aside, would it be so bad to return to lower population levels? The only thing I'm sad about is that I won't live to see the population decline rather than increase.

zmgsabst 4y ago
Yes — it’s absolutely psychotic to hope for a mass loss of human life and the decline of our species. There’s no reason to think it would make things better — and many to think a massive population decline would come with a technology regression and stall of our advancement. I think such ideas are a form of mental illness, often stemming from delusions about the world.
- GekkePrutser 4y ago
  Not a decline but a stabilisation. That's really what's needed to make our planet sustainable. Right now the absolute worst thing you can do for the environment is to have a child as a westerner. And we're not hoping for loss of life. Just a more balanced population in the long term. We can't keep growing until every square meter of this planet is covered with people, I'm sure that's clear. Eventually resources will be constrained too much and massive wars over control of the scraps will be inevitable. Which will solve the problem of overpopulation, sure. But it'll be better to gradually reduce population growth to zero and finally reach a balance with our environment. Nobody is speaking of a massive decline.
  - xienze 4y ago
    > Right now the absolute worst thing you can do for the environment is to have a child as a westerner. Just out of curiosity, are you also opposed to immigration from third world countries into first world ones?
    - GekkePrutser 4y ago
      No I'm not. I am opposed to unlimited immigration though due to the shock effect on society.
      - xienze 4y ago
        Surely you can see where the issue is, don’t you? How can a westerner having a baby be any worse than an immigrant making their way to a western country, from a carbon footprint perspective? To me you can’t logically say that westerners having babies is a problem and still be OK with any amount of immigration, at least if the environment is your argument.
        GekkePrutser 4y ago
        That's not really an immigration issue but a distribution of wealth issue IMO. Something we also have to reduce to have a more sustainable world. The issue is that the source of our wealth externalises the cost to the environment. The problem is really with our western society, not the people. It's pretty likely African immigrants can teach us a thing or two about living more in harmony with nature.
Mirioron 4y ago
As a species on the planet? No, there's nothing bad about it. But it's going to be bad politically. It will shake up the power of countries when population numbers change and no country wants to give to power.

GekkePrutser 4y ago

They should keep going down if we want to save this planet. Our population growth is unsustainable. It'll cause some demographic issues in the short term but we'll just have to deal with that.

colechristensen 4y ago
Advanced economies are only growing via immigration, there is no population growth through reproduction. Also the planet will be just fine, it is us we’re worried about.
- GekkePrutser 4y ago
  If you define the planet as just a rock spinning around the sun then yes. I would define it as a complex ecosystem of interconnected species and we're doing a lot of damage to that that goes far beyond ourselves.

lvturner 4y ago

We tried nothing and it didn’t work! Best give up!