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Ironic they leave out Asian men in the graph at the top. I guess those numbers wouldn't fit their "America is racist" trope. Other than that though, standardiz

Ironic they leave out Asian men in the graph at the top. I guess those numbers wouldn't fit their "America is racist" trope. Other than that though, standardizing pay will balance the playing field towards smaller companies. Bigger companies will face pressure to standardize pay packages per level (see: Coinbase, Uber) which limits their ability to reward top performers. Smaller companies won't have that same pressure. The pay gap is largely a function of how much each gender negotiates on average and if you take away negotiating then people will just leave to places where they're paid what they're worth.

kube-system 5y ago
The largest part of the pay gap is not negotiation, it's occupational segregation. And for the most part, sharing salaries publicly won't fix this at all. It's too late by the time everyone has chosen a career. To fix this gap, we really need to change how we all think about gender roles from birth.
- jimbob45 5y ago
  So instead of pushing girls and boys to choose jobs based on their gender we should...push girls and boys to choose different jobs based on their gender? It seems like you're fighting fire with fire here.
  - kube-system 5y ago
    > push girls and boys to choose different jobs based on their gender? Nowhere did I suggest as much. I am simply suggesting that the gender roles we ascribe to children early on leave permanent impressions upon what they choose, and maybe more importantly, what others expect of them.
    - smegsicle 5y ago
      by insisting on that suggestion, you are implying that this is harmful, that women choose incorrectly, and that it be corrected
      - kube-system 5y ago
        No, women (and men) are not “incorrect” for having been misguided by their upbringing. Children aren’t to blame for the way they were raised, they have no choice in the matter. Those who influenced them in that way are the ones who are incorrect.
        smegsicle 5y ago
        by what evidence or intuition are you inferring misguidance?
        kube-system 5y ago
        We have plenty of relevant examples of scenarios where, given the exact same set of circumstances, men and women would be treated differently for exercising free will in defiance of gender norms. There are still jobs, even in the most progressive parts of the world, where people are given different levels of respect just because of their gender.
- gotoeleven 5y ago
  Whats to fix? The evidence shows that women and men choose different things. There is less STEM participation by women in countries that are more gender-egalitarian. Smart women who are capable of STEM careers largely choose different careers, if they can. Whats wrong with that? Doesn't assuming that there is something to "fix" here imply that women are broken? It's already clear that removing the barriers to enter these fields doesn't make them substantially more attractive to women, so whats left to "fix"?
  - kube-system 5y ago
    There is more to the equation than STEM vs non-STEM jobs. > removing the barriers to enter these fields doesn't make them substantially more attractive to women Any why is that the case? There are a lot of assumptions about the types of jobs that men/women should be doing, and there are also a lot of cultural assumptions about those job positions themselves and what they expect of their workers. There are also still many jobs which are not receptive to one gender or the other, either by their cultures or the cultures of their customers. This is something that should be fixed, even if it doesn't impact the choices that people make, although we do know that cultural expectations have a huge impact on choice. We also don't only have cultural expectations about jobs women should have. We also have expectations about jobs men have. For example, many cultures expect men to make personal sacrifices in order to earn more money. Gender expectations usually affect both genders at the same time, rarely one in isolation.
- newsclues 5y ago
  How does that work?
  - kube-system 5y ago
    I'm not sure what part of my comment you're referring to.
    - newsclues 5y ago
      “To fix this gap, we really need to change how we all think about gender roles from birth.“ How are you going to correct humanities concepts of gender that have existed for a long time?
      - kube-system 5y ago
        The same way we've made any other social progress. By discussing it.
        newsclues 5y ago
        Problem solving requires more than discussion.
        kube-system 5y ago
        Sometimes. But if it does, it starts there.
- ryan93 5y ago
  Ill believe it when there is a massive push for women to go into dangerous jobs.
  - kube-system 5y ago
    Shouldn't we be equally concerned about men or women being hurt at work? The fact that most places, culturally, are not, is exactly the kind of stuff I'm referring to.
    - e4e78a06 5y ago
      The US and Europe have great safety regulations for workers. It turns out given the choice women would rather not live in the middle of nowhere in -40C weather getting soaked by crude oil and mud every day, even if it pays six figures. Why do men do it? Because there's a societal expectation that they provide for the family as a breadwinner.
      - kube-system 5y ago
        Exactly. Just because we have made great progress with blatant sexism over the past 50 years doesn’t mean that we’re treating sexes equally. This is one of the reasons why a wage gap due to “choice” isn’t as much of a “choice” as many write it off as. We raise children with an expectation that women need to be “protected” from certain jobs (and other expectations), then after two decades of that conditioning, we ask them to make a “choice”. Of course those “choices” end up being biased. But they didn’t fully choose, they were raised to believe certain things about themselves and their surroundings.
        ryan93 5y ago
        How are peoples choices ever gonna be unbiased? Beyond absurd to claim choices are only unbiased if men and women choose careers in equal proportion.
        kube-system 5y ago

kube-system 5y ago

The largest part of the pay gap is not negotiation, it's occupational segregation. And for the most part, sharing salaries publicly won't fix this at all. It's too late by the time everyone has chosen a career. To fix this gap, we really need to change how we all think about gender roles from birth.

jimbob45 5y ago
So instead of pushing girls and boys to choose jobs based on their gender we should...push girls and boys to choose different jobs based on their gender? It seems like you're fighting fire with fire here.
- kube-system 5y ago
  > push girls and boys to choose different jobs based on their gender? Nowhere did I suggest as much. I am simply suggesting that the gender roles we ascribe to children early on leave permanent impressions upon what they choose, and maybe more importantly, what others expect of them.
  - smegsicle 5y ago
    by insisting on that suggestion, you are implying that this is harmful, that women choose incorrectly, and that it be corrected
    - kube-system 5y ago
      No, women (and men) are not “incorrect” for having been misguided by their upbringing. Children aren’t to blame for the way they were raised, they have no choice in the matter. Those who influenced them in that way are the ones who are incorrect.
      - smegsicle 5y ago
        by what evidence or intuition are you inferring misguidance?
        kube-system 5y ago
        We have plenty of relevant examples of scenarios where, given the exact same set of circumstances, men and women would be treated differently for exercising free will in defiance of gender norms. There are still jobs, even in the most progressive parts of the world, where people are given different levels of respect just because of their gender.
gotoeleven 5y ago
Whats to fix? The evidence shows that women and men choose different things. There is less STEM participation by women in countries that are more gender-egalitarian. Smart women who are capable of STEM careers largely choose different careers, if they can. Whats wrong with that? Doesn't assuming that there is something to "fix" here imply that women are broken? It's already clear that removing the barriers to enter these fields doesn't make them substantially more attractive to women, so whats left to "fix"?
- kube-system 5y ago
  There is more to the equation than STEM vs non-STEM jobs. > removing the barriers to enter these fields doesn't make them substantially more attractive to women Any why is that the case? There are a lot of assumptions about the types of jobs that men/women should be doing, and there are also a lot of cultural assumptions about those job positions themselves and what they expect of their workers. There are also still many jobs which are not receptive to one gender or the other, either by their cultures or the cultures of their customers. This is something that should be fixed, even if it doesn't impact the choices that people make, although we do know that cultural expectations have a huge impact on choice. We also don't only have cultural expectations about jobs women should have. We also have expectations about jobs men have. For example, many cultures expect men to make personal sacrifices in order to earn more money. Gender expectations usually affect both genders at the same time, rarely one in isolation.
newsclues 5y ago
How does that work?
- kube-system 5y ago
  I'm not sure what part of my comment you're referring to.
  - newsclues 5y ago
    “To fix this gap, we really need to change how we all think about gender roles from birth.“ How are you going to correct humanities concepts of gender that have existed for a long time?
    - kube-system 5y ago
      The same way we've made any other social progress. By discussing it.
      - newsclues 5y ago
        Problem solving requires more than discussion.
        kube-system 5y ago
        Sometimes. But if it does, it starts there.
ryan93 5y ago
Ill believe it when there is a massive push for women to go into dangerous jobs.
- kube-system 5y ago
  Shouldn't we be equally concerned about men or women being hurt at work? The fact that most places, culturally, are not, is exactly the kind of stuff I'm referring to.
  - e4e78a06 5y ago
    The US and Europe have great safety regulations for workers. It turns out given the choice women would rather not live in the middle of nowhere in -40C weather getting soaked by crude oil and mud every day, even if it pays six figures. Why do men do it? Because there's a societal expectation that they provide for the family as a breadwinner.
    - kube-system 5y ago
      Exactly. Just because we have made great progress with blatant sexism over the past 50 years doesn’t mean that we’re treating sexes equally. This is one of the reasons why a wage gap due to “choice” isn’t as much of a “choice” as many write it off as. We raise children with an expectation that women need to be “protected” from certain jobs (and other expectations), then after two decades of that conditioning, we ask them to make a “choice”. Of course those “choices” end up being biased. But they didn’t fully choose, they were raised to believe certain things about themselves and their surroundings.
      - ryan93 5y ago
        How are peoples choices ever gonna be unbiased? Beyond absurd to claim choices are only unbiased if men and women choose careers in equal proportion.
        kube-system 5y ago