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I don't think Ukraine was even being seriously considered for NATO until Russia decided to surround the country with its military recently. It's like punching

I don't think Ukraine was even being seriously considered for NATO until Russia decided to surround the country with its military recently. It's like punching someone, some guy passing by tells you to stop, then you justify your reason for punching that person because you were worried that the person who told you to stop was going to attack you. Nobody was going to do anything to say anything to you if you hadn't gone out of your way to attack someone.

dragonwriter 5y ago
> I don't think Ukraine was even being seriously considered for NATO until Russia decided to surround the country with its military recently. NATO, in a statement from the NATO Summit, explicitly indicated last June (so, before the late 2021 encirclement) the intention that Ukraine would join the alliance through the Membership Action Plan. This reiterated a 2008 policy statement that had effectively been shelved by the Yanukovych governments anti-NATO position, but never formally restated after a more NATO-friendly government had emerged in Ukraine and sought to advance towards membership.
- friedturkey 5y ago
  Do you think Russia's funding of terrorist groups in the eastern portions of Ukraine known for atrocities against civilians could've influenced that decision? Or maybe going back farther Russia's sudden seizure of Crimea with a fraudulent vote with 97% in support could've been what made Ukraine nervous that they'd be invaded and seek support from other countries? Or maybe going back a little farther to the USSR's atrocities against Ukraine, including Holodomor--the outright genocide of the Ukrainian people--might've been the thing that makes Ukraine want to ally with literally any country but Russia? The idea that Ukraine should want to associate with Russia is the most bizarre political claim there ever was. Their history is nothing but being ravaged and literally raped by Russia, so them considering joining NATO is nothing but a big "no shit". Putin deserves to be surrounded for his actions. All he's done is shown that the Russia's intentions to destroy the Ukrainian people haven't changed in 100 years.
  - mercy_dude 5y ago
    A big part of the general population of Ukraine never wanted to do anything with NATO, even at the peak of the crisis western backed poll found the support for NATO only around 54%. Your count of history of Ukraine being raped and ravaged by Russia is generally not supported by large part of Ukrainian population, as supported even the western polls. > Do you think Russia's funding of terrorist groups in the eastern portions of Ukraine known for atrocities against civilians could've influenced that decision? What? Eastern Ukraine including Donbass and Crimea has a large majority of Russian speakers with ties with Russia. Ukrainian parliament decided to deny minority languages meant to provoke Russia http://www.iconnectblog.com/2021/04/minority-rights-ukraines-gateway-to-the-west/ http://www.iconnectblog.com/2021/04/minority-rights-ukraines...
    - lalaland1125 5y ago
      > NATO only around 54% And opposition to NATO was only 28%. Twice as many people want to join NATO as those who oppose joining. That's a huge majority and the way you are trying to undersell it means you are either being intentionally misleading or didn't understand how the poll worked.
    - friedturkey 5y ago
      America has a large portion of English speakers. It historically had a large portion of people with direct ties to the UK. Haiti had plenty of people with ties to France and still has French speakers. Taiwan has Chinese speakers and people with family in China. There's a clear pattern here. But Russia pays people to pretend that Russian speakers means it's their land to stabilize. When in reality, it's a completely irrelevant statement.
      - DeathArrow 5y ago
        Maybe you read some history? To learn how parts of Russia, Hungary, Romania, Slovacia and Poland were forcefully integrated into Ucrainei along with their respective populations by Soviet leaders?
  - 5y ago
mercy_dude 5y ago
> I don't think Ukraine was even being seriously considered for NATO until Russia decided to surround the country with its military recently. West backed Ukraine leadership applied for NATO membership as early as 2008. http://www.unian.net/eng/news/news-287949.html http://www.unian.net/eng/news/news-287949.html
- DeathArrow 5y ago
  And Putin came personally to 2008 NATO summit in Bucharest to tell that Russia won't tolerate this.

dragonwriter 5y ago

> I don't think Ukraine was even being seriously considered for NATO until Russia decided to surround the country with its military recently. NATO, in a statement from the NATO Summit, explicitly indicated last June (so, before the late 2021 encirclement) the intention that Ukraine would join the alliance through the Membership Action Plan. This reiterated a 2008 policy statement that had effectively been shelved by the Yanukovych governments anti-NATO position, but never formally restated after a more NATO-friendly government had emerged in Ukraine and sought to advance towards membership.

friedturkey 5y ago
Do you think Russia's funding of terrorist groups in the eastern portions of Ukraine known for atrocities against civilians could've influenced that decision? Or maybe going back farther Russia's sudden seizure of Crimea with a fraudulent vote with 97% in support could've been what made Ukraine nervous that they'd be invaded and seek support from other countries? Or maybe going back a little farther to the USSR's atrocities against Ukraine, including Holodomor--the outright genocide of the Ukrainian people--might've been the thing that makes Ukraine want to ally with literally any country but Russia? The idea that Ukraine should want to associate with Russia is the most bizarre political claim there ever was. Their history is nothing but being ravaged and literally raped by Russia, so them considering joining NATO is nothing but a big "no shit". Putin deserves to be surrounded for his actions. All he's done is shown that the Russia's intentions to destroy the Ukrainian people haven't changed in 100 years.
- mercy_dude 5y ago
  A big part of the general population of Ukraine never wanted to do anything with NATO, even at the peak of the crisis western backed poll found the support for NATO only around 54%. Your count of history of Ukraine being raped and ravaged by Russia is generally not supported by large part of Ukrainian population, as supported even the western polls. > Do you think Russia's funding of terrorist groups in the eastern portions of Ukraine known for atrocities against civilians could've influenced that decision? What? Eastern Ukraine including Donbass and Crimea has a large majority of Russian speakers with ties with Russia. Ukrainian parliament decided to deny minority languages meant to provoke Russia http://www.iconnectblog.com/2021/04/minority-rights-ukraines-gateway-to-the-west/ http://www.iconnectblog.com/2021/04/minority-rights-ukraines...
  - lalaland1125 5y ago
    > NATO only around 54% And opposition to NATO was only 28%. Twice as many people want to join NATO as those who oppose joining. That's a huge majority and the way you are trying to undersell it means you are either being intentionally misleading or didn't understand how the poll worked.
  - friedturkey 5y ago
    America has a large portion of English speakers. It historically had a large portion of people with direct ties to the UK. Haiti had plenty of people with ties to France and still has French speakers. Taiwan has Chinese speakers and people with family in China. There's a clear pattern here. But Russia pays people to pretend that Russian speakers means it's their land to stabilize. When in reality, it's a completely irrelevant statement.
    - DeathArrow 5y ago
      Maybe you read some history? To learn how parts of Russia, Hungary, Romania, Slovacia and Poland were forcefully integrated into Ucrainei along with their respective populations by Soviet leaders?
- 5y ago

mercy_dude 5y ago

> I don't think Ukraine was even being seriously considered for NATO until Russia decided to surround the country with its military recently. West backed Ukraine leadership applied for NATO membership as early as 2008. http://www.unian.net/eng/news/news-287949.html http://www.unian.net/eng/news/news-287949.html

DeathArrow 5y ago
And Putin came personally to 2008 NATO summit in Bucharest to tell that Russia won't tolerate this.