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Russia demands neutrality to be enshrined in Ukrainian constitution which will disallow Ukraine from joining EU as well. Basically they want Ukraine to remain l

Russia demands neutrality to be enshrined in Ukrainian constitution which will disallow Ukraine from joining EU as well. Basically they want Ukraine to remain like Belarus: poor and subservient.

ejanus 5y ago
So, all non-EU states are poor? And Greeces and Italy are a classic examples of nations making it big under EU cover. GUY, come on.
- dane-pgp 5y ago
  > So, all non-EU states are poor? No, but the ones oppressed by Russia tend to be. > And Greeces and Italy are a classic examples of nations making it big under EU cover. GDP (US$ PPP) per capita (IMF 2021 estimate): Italy 43,376 Greece 30,495 Belarus 20,578 Moldova 13,879 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28PPP%29_per_capita https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28PP...
  - ejanus 5y ago
    Stack them where they were before entering EU and where they are now.
    - etcet 5y ago
      It looks like 2004 was a good year to join NATO: https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.CD?locations=SK-LT-LV-EE-BY-MD https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.CD?location...
  - forum_ghost 5y ago
    Doesn't seem to add up. Seems like more of a global North vs global south divide. 37 Montenegro 21,390 36 Belarus 21,470 35 Bulgaria 25,850 34 Russia 30,430 33 Croatia 31,110 32 Greece 31,820 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_in_Europe_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_in_Eu...
    - dane-pgp 5y ago
      > Seems like more of a global North vs global south divide. Which of the countries in your list do you think are in the global north, and which are in the global south?
      - dragonwriter 5y ago
        “global north/global south” has become (as if it ever was not) a completely pointless circumlocution for what it describes as “first world/third world” is.
forum_ghost 5y ago
Neither Switzerland, Norway, Iceland nor Lichtenstein are in the EU, all are fairly well off to very rich countries. Also, afaik, the demand was not about joining EU, but NATO? Austria, Finland, Sweden are not part of NATO, and are doing fine. Plenty of very poor subservient countries in the EU too, just look at how “nicely” they dealt with Greece. Romania and Bulgaria are also roughly as poor as Ukraine, on the PPP basis.
- nayaketo 5y ago
  Neutrality means they won't be able to join EU either.
  - forum_ghost 5y ago
    Switzerland, Norway, Iceland nor Lichtenstein are in the EU. They seem to be just fine. EU comes with some huge strings attached, up to and including loss of sovereignty. https://www.opindia.com/2022/03/european-union-hits-poland-and-hungary-with-sanctions-while-they-deal-with-over-1-5-million-ukrainian-refugees/ https://www.opindia.com/2022/03/european-union-hits-poland-a... Ukraine could've just had both sides (NATO and EAEU/Russia) pay for the Ukrainian defence/security, then figure out a side deal with EU, and be part of their economic area and customs union, but not cede sovereignty to EU. They could've done it. The real question is why that didn't happen, why did they want to cede sovereignty to the EU so bad?
    - dane-pgp 5y ago
      > why did they want to cede sovereignty to the EU so bad? Signing a treaty (which you can later leave) is not a loss of sovereignty, it is an exercise of sovereignty. If you want to be reductionist about it, a country joining NATO would be a loss of sovereignty too, because they would be committing their foreign and military policy to a supranational body. Similarly, your proposal of Ukraine promising not to join NATO (presumably as a condition in some treaty?) would also be a loss of sovereignty, by that logic, because a truly sovereign nation is entitled to apply for NATO membership whenever it wants to.

Russia demands neutrality to be enshrined in Ukrainian constitution which will disallow Ukraine from joining EU as well. Basically they want Ukraine to remain like Belarus: poor and subservient.

ejanus 5y ago

So, all non-EU states are poor? And Greeces and Italy are a classic examples of nations making it big under EU cover. GUY, come on.

dane-pgp 5y ago
> So, all non-EU states are poor? No, but the ones oppressed by Russia tend to be. > And Greeces and Italy are a classic examples of nations making it big under EU cover. GDP (US$ PPP) per capita (IMF 2021 estimate): Italy 43,376 Greece 30,495 Belarus 20,578 Moldova 13,879 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28PPP%29_per_capita https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28PP...
- ejanus 5y ago
  Stack them where they were before entering EU and where they are now.
  - etcet 5y ago
    It looks like 2004 was a good year to join NATO: https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.CD?locations=SK-LT-LV-EE-BY-MD https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.CD?location...
- forum_ghost 5y ago
  Doesn't seem to add up. Seems like more of a global North vs global south divide. 37 Montenegro 21,390 36 Belarus 21,470 35 Bulgaria 25,850 34 Russia 30,430 33 Croatia 31,110 32 Greece 31,820 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_in_Europe_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_in_Eu...
  - dane-pgp 5y ago
    > Seems like more of a global North vs global south divide. Which of the countries in your list do you think are in the global north, and which are in the global south?
    - dragonwriter 5y ago
      “global north/global south” has become (as if it ever was not) a completely pointless circumlocution for what it describes as “first world/third world” is.

forum_ghost 5y ago

Neither Switzerland, Norway, Iceland nor Lichtenstein are in the EU, all are fairly well off to very rich countries. Also, afaik, the demand was not about joining EU, but NATO? Austria, Finland, Sweden are not part of NATO, and are doing fine. Plenty of very poor subservient countries in the EU too, just look at how “nicely” they dealt with Greece. Romania and Bulgaria are also roughly as poor as Ukraine, on the PPP basis.

nayaketo 5y ago
Neutrality means they won't be able to join EU either.
- forum_ghost 5y ago
  Switzerland, Norway, Iceland nor Lichtenstein are in the EU. They seem to be just fine. EU comes with some huge strings attached, up to and including loss of sovereignty. https://www.opindia.com/2022/03/european-union-hits-poland-and-hungary-with-sanctions-while-they-deal-with-over-1-5-million-ukrainian-refugees/ https://www.opindia.com/2022/03/european-union-hits-poland-a... Ukraine could've just had both sides (NATO and EAEU/Russia) pay for the Ukrainian defence/security, then figure out a side deal with EU, and be part of their economic area and customs union, but not cede sovereignty to EU. They could've done it. The real question is why that didn't happen, why did they want to cede sovereignty to the EU so bad?
  - dane-pgp 5y ago
    > why did they want to cede sovereignty to the EU so bad? Signing a treaty (which you can later leave) is not a loss of sovereignty, it is an exercise of sovereignty. If you want to be reductionist about it, a country joining NATO would be a loss of sovereignty too, because they would be committing their foreign and military policy to a supranational body. Similarly, your proposal of Ukraine promising not to join NATO (presumably as a condition in some treaty?) would also be a loss of sovereignty, by that logic, because a truly sovereign nation is entitled to apply for NATO membership whenever it wants to.