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As a runner I love that running is a true meritocracy. Sure, some people can afford better recovery tools etc but performance is the true test. Someone cheatin

As a runner I love that running is a true meritocracy. Sure, some people can afford better recovery tools etc but performance is the true test. Someone cheating sucks, but nobody deserves to be mobbed and totally ruined. It’s usually people at the “local elite” level as well. The pros who actually make a living running could never get away with it… it’s just people being vain, who in most cases have legitimate talent but feel so much pressure to perform. Nobody is getting rich by cheating. They are primarily cheating themselves. Driving them into the ground helps nobody.

sasawpg 5y ago
> It’s usually people at the “local elite” level as well. The pros who actually make a living running could never get away with it… it’s just people being vain, who in most cases have legitimate talent but feel so much pressure to perform. Pros cheat and get away with it often enough.
boringg 5y ago
And by meritocracy I assume you exclude the genetic lottery we all play from the equation.
- code_runner 5y ago
  haha yes. I mean "if you run fast, you ran fast". Can't be taken from you if you're out of shape now... if you're in great shape but didn't run fast... you didn't run fast.
technofiend 5y ago
A friend who at the time ran a charity that sponsored marathon runners asked me if there was a technological solution to tracking runners more closely than just the mats that read runner shoe or bib RFID tags. The issue was she wanted to do at the New York City Marathon and frankly I was concerned there would not be enough cell tower availability for real-time monitoring. These days the answer is run any of 100 cellphone tracking and location sharing apps like Glympse and carry on since every time we go up (3g->4g->5g) we get more and more towers in smaller and smaller coverage areas. But at the time I was envisioning a peer-to-peer network of esp8266 devices all sharing location data and passing along updates via whatever open wifi access points they could find. I hate to say race organizers should demand people load a phone app just so they can get an official result, but maybe we're back to needing dedicated hardware or enough tracking mats that spoofing the system becomes impractical.
- code_runner 5y ago
  I just think that the cons out weight the pros. The professional runners are monitored so closely cutting is not a realistic option.... and they're the ones actually getting prize money... obviously they're tested for doping etc... Everything else is really just personal achievement... and if you're cheating at that level you're just depriving yourself of legitimate accomplishment. It isn't a race organizers responsibility to keep you from doing so.... When it comes to something w/ limited availability like a Boston etc... that is different.... if you cut a course (or cheated via other means) in order to submit a qualifying time you're legitimately affecting others as well. I have to admit it does get murky here and there.
- tinus_hn 5y ago
  Do people actually carry a smartphone while running a marathon?
  - rossriley 5y ago
    Unlikely at the higher levels, I would just use a Garmin watch and sync up the timings after the race.
Pulcinella 5y ago
It’s usually people at the “local elite” level as well. Reminds me of the start of Icarus before it turns into being about international politics. Cyclists spending tons of money on top of the line bikes and tons of doping just to try to win the tri-county cycling race. I wouldn’t say running, even amateur running, is entirely meritocratic. You get a lot of the same behavior, just less outlets for it. (E.g. you can buy this Nike shoes with the carbon fiber panel in them, but besides shoes there is not much you can do to push your performance besides). E.g. You do get people with mysteriously very low times compared to their last race or age group. I don’t think you should be drug testing local races and marathons because it just seems pointless and overkill for what is supposed to be a friendly community competition, but I would say the exact same thing about people who want to win said community competition at all cost.
- code_runner 5y ago
  I agree that drug testing local races is overkill.... its easy to pick out the few dopers in a community because they ONLY do the small local races (and therefore are extremely limited in what prize money they can win). People wanting to win that local level at all costs are definitely cheating the other clean/non-cheating athletes who would've been on a podium but the scope is limited to those in contention (though still wrong). For the most part, people are competing against themselves and trying to get a qualifying time for another event or just set a PR.
CharlesW 5y ago
> Someone cheating sucks, but nobody deserves to be mobbed and totally ruined. It's tragic that the cheater killed himself. But if marathon running is a "true meritocracy" where "performance is the true test", the public interest and outcry over violating the sport's core tenets is really not to blame, especially given a significant cheating problem. > They are primarily cheating themselves. This implies that there's nothing at stake for the non-cheaters, or that it's not important to them or the sport itself.
- code_runner 5y ago
  There is outrage, stripping someone of their ill-gotten-titles etc... and then there is further shaming that person... all just to verify that they feel as badly as you want them to.
  - CharlesW 5y ago
    I agree with you completely that people who participate in online mobs are awful. My response was addressing the parent commenter who primarily blamed the mob instead of the victim, who seemingly had multiple opportunities to disengage.
    - code_runner 5y ago
      ahhhh gotcha. Yeah, bad behaviors/instincts from all involved.

sasawpg 5y ago

> It’s usually people at the “local elite” level as well. The pros who actually make a living running could never get away with it… it’s just people being vain, who in most cases have legitimate talent but feel so much pressure to perform. Pros cheat and get away with it often enough.

boringg 5y ago

And by meritocracy I assume you exclude the genetic lottery we all play from the equation.

code_runner 5y ago
haha yes. I mean "if you run fast, you ran fast". Can't be taken from you if you're out of shape now... if you're in great shape but didn't run fast... you didn't run fast.

technofiend 5y ago

A friend who at the time ran a charity that sponsored marathon runners asked me if there was a technological solution to tracking runners more closely than just the mats that read runner shoe or bib RFID tags. The issue was she wanted to do at the New York City Marathon and frankly I was concerned there would not be enough cell tower availability for real-time monitoring. These days the answer is run any of 100 cellphone tracking and location sharing apps like Glympse and carry on since every time we go up (3g->4g->5g) we get more and more towers in smaller and smaller coverage areas. But at the time I was envisioning a peer-to-peer network of esp8266 devices all sharing location data and passing along updates via whatever open wifi access points they could find. I hate to say race organizers should demand people load a phone app just so they can get an official result, but maybe we're back to needing dedicated hardware or enough tracking mats that spoofing the system becomes impractical.

code_runner 5y ago
I just think that the cons out weight the pros. The professional runners are monitored so closely cutting is not a realistic option.... and they're the ones actually getting prize money... obviously they're tested for doping etc... Everything else is really just personal achievement... and if you're cheating at that level you're just depriving yourself of legitimate accomplishment. It isn't a race organizers responsibility to keep you from doing so.... When it comes to something w/ limited availability like a Boston etc... that is different.... if you cut a course (or cheated via other means) in order to submit a qualifying time you're legitimately affecting others as well. I have to admit it does get murky here and there.
tinus_hn 5y ago
Do people actually carry a smartphone while running a marathon?
- rossriley 5y ago
  Unlikely at the higher levels, I would just use a Garmin watch and sync up the timings after the race.

Pulcinella 5y ago

It’s usually people at the “local elite” level as well. Reminds me of the start of Icarus before it turns into being about international politics. Cyclists spending tons of money on top of the line bikes and tons of doping just to try to win the tri-county cycling race. I wouldn’t say running, even amateur running, is entirely meritocratic. You get a lot of the same behavior, just less outlets for it. (E.g. you can buy this Nike shoes with the carbon fiber panel in them, but besides shoes there is not much you can do to push your performance besides). E.g. You do get people with mysteriously very low times compared to their last race or age group. I don’t think you should be drug testing local races and marathons because it just seems pointless and overkill for what is supposed to be a friendly community competition, but I would say the exact same thing about people who want to win said community competition at all cost.

code_runner 5y ago
I agree that drug testing local races is overkill.... its easy to pick out the few dopers in a community because they ONLY do the small local races (and therefore are extremely limited in what prize money they can win). People wanting to win that local level at all costs are definitely cheating the other clean/non-cheating athletes who would've been on a podium but the scope is limited to those in contention (though still wrong). For the most part, people are competing against themselves and trying to get a qualifying time for another event or just set a PR.

CharlesW 5y ago

> Someone cheating sucks, but nobody deserves to be mobbed and totally ruined. It's tragic that the cheater killed himself. But if marathon running is a "true meritocracy" where "performance is the true test", the public interest and outcry over violating the sport's core tenets is really not to blame, especially given a significant cheating problem. > They are primarily cheating themselves. This implies that there's nothing at stake for the non-cheaters, or that it's not important to them or the sport itself.

code_runner 5y ago
There is outrage, stripping someone of their ill-gotten-titles etc... and then there is further shaming that person... all just to verify that they feel as badly as you want them to.
- CharlesW 5y ago
  I agree with you completely that people who participate in online mobs are awful. My response was addressing the parent commenter who primarily blamed the mob instead of the victim, who seemingly had multiple opportunities to disengage.
  - code_runner 5y ago
    ahhhh gotcha. Yeah, bad behaviors/instincts from all involved.