6 ms·

A society with so many ppl that rely so much on alcohol is just a symptom of even bigger problem. Give people a sense of purpose, or better community ties, and

by Hisoka 15y ago

A society with so many ppl that rely so much on alcohol is just a symptom of even bigger problem. Give people a sense of purpose, or better community ties, and the need for "drugs" decreases

irahul 15y ago
> A society with so many ppl that rely so much on alcohol is just a symptom of even bigger problem. It's common for people who don't drink to assume alcohol is a big problem - it's not. > Give people a sense of purpose, or better community ties, and the need for "drugs" decreases People with sense of purpose, and better community ties, indulge in social drinking all too often. Never been to an entrepreneur's meetup which is in a bar? Never seen a family and friends getting drunk?
- lewcypher 15y ago
  orly? Alcohol is a very large problem, not least keeping people isolated and stuck in their lower self, see Timothy Learys writings on drugs and Chakras. http://pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/aa38.htm http://pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/aa38.htm
  - irahul 15y ago
    > orly? Oh, really? Yes. > Alcohol is a very large problem, not least keeping people isolated and stuck in their lower self, see Timothy Learys writings on drugs and Chakras. http://pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/aa38.htm http://pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/aa38.htm Alcohol is not a problem, being an alcoholic is. Breaking news, excess of anything is generally bad. By your reasoning, tv is bad since excess tv is bad, food is bad since excess food is bad...The list goes on and on.
    - lewcypher 15y ago
      Fair enough, you have half a point there, though this is the whole 'guns don't kill people...' argument. In the context of western society alcohol abuse has been almost normalized, and binge drinking especially amongst young people is considered 'a fun night out'. You are right, alcohol abuse is the problem. As a society we abuse alcohol. TV and sports events are saturated with alcohol advertising, children are exposed from a very young age to alcohol (ab)use. Granted, there is nothing wrong with drinking in moderation, I enjoy a few beers myself. Though if there were an actually sane and evidenced based approach to drug policy, alcohol would be seen to be one of the most damaging drugs and would be regulated appropriately. Regulation meaning education, higher taxes on alcoholic beverages, a heavy restriction on advertising, and support for the sick people that are abusing it.
      - burgerbrain 15y ago
        Higher taxes on firearms works as a public policy, more or less. However, the 'higher taxes on dangerous things' model fails miserably when applied to addictive substances. This is evidenced directly in cigarette taxes, and indirectly in illegal substances. Addicts can literally chose their substance over food, and forget about rent and family members... A large portion of the suffering addicts endure can be traced directly back to financial hardships induced by the price of their substance. So not only does this sort of policy not work, but it is actively inhuman. Addicts need professional medical treatment, effectively telling them to 'just say no' is ignoring the reality of the situation. Not to mention you'll still have drunk rich jackasses in sportscars killing people (RIP Ryan Dunn)...
    - philwelch 15y ago
      I don't think you're really responding to his point. I'm rather in favor of alcohol myself, but there are some things that are just plain bad regardless of quantity. Food is good in moderation because without food you starve to death, but Twinkies are bad regardless of quantity; not only are they nutrient poor junk food, but they taste pretty disgusting compared to any kind of proper cake. And it's hard to come up with any redeeming qualities of cigarettes, either.
      - burgerbrain 15y ago
        Twinkies harm nobody in moderation, you just don't like them. Confusing "I don't like it" with "it's not good" is an unfortunate but seemingly quite common problem in society. You'll often see this manifest with so called "second hand smoke". When confronted with facts (such as for example, anti-second-hand-smoke laws are only necessary because OSHA recognizes the scientific fact that it doesn't pose a credible risk to heath (OSHA has air quality standards, and other people smoking does not trip them)), they often fall back on "well it smells bad".
  - potatolicious 15y ago
    Lots of things are problem for people. World of Warcraft also does a marvelous job of keeping people isolated and stuck in their lower self. That doesn't mean: - the majority of its users can do use it responsibly without adverse effect on their lives and those around them - it needs to be banned, or even subject to extensive regulation - the act itself is the root cause of said destructive behavior. People who let WoW ruin their lives often had other severe issues to begin with. Among other things that can be highly self-destructive (and destructive to those around them) in the wrong hands: sports cars, the gym, fast food (>25% of the USA is obese, after all), online gaming, poker, literature... I could go on. Hell, ignoring the moral side of it for a moment, legislating morality just simply doesn't work. Disregarding the justifications of Prohibition, from a practical perspective it just made things worse: it created a major avenue of organized crime, and failed to stop the flow of alcohol anyways. If the people want to drink, or smoke pot, or play poker, or log onto WoW, or chow down on a burger, you can't stop it.
- SoftwareMaven 15y ago
  Tell that to the women who started the prohibition movement because they and their children were being beaten while their husbands drank their earnings away. Alcohol (like all drugs) has a very dark side (but it is just one side). To sweep it away so blithely is, IMO, exceedingly naive. Unfortunately, the conversations on these topics are too often "Your view is myopic. And my view is the only view that matters." We need more of the former and less of the latter.
  - irahul 15y ago
    > Tell that to the women who started the prohibition movement because they and their children were being beaten while their husbands drank their earnings away. And how prevalent is that "wife beating" today? Alcohol exists, and "wife beating" has come down significantly. There are variables other than alcohol, and alcohol plays a very small part. > Alcohol (like all drugs) has a very dark side (but it is just one side). To sweep it away so blithely is, IMO, exceedingly naive. And to take it too seriously is ridiculous. > "Your view is myopic. And my view is the only view that matters." Like yours? Your view is the only one that matters, and other viewpoints in your opinion are exceedingly naive?
    - pg 15y ago
      Please stop.
- armandososa 15y ago
  * My grandfather was an alcoholic and caused lots of damage to my dad's infancy. * Teenagers are amazingly stupid already. They are stupid and dangerous when driving under the influence of alcohol. A very dear friend of mine was killed by a drunk driver. * Drunk girls are raped by drunk stupid men all the time. My cousin got pregnant at 14 because of this. When you don't drink is when you can really see how big of a problem alcohol really is. Starting with social drinking, which means that some people are absolutely incapable of have social bonding or plain fun without any alcohol. Pathetic.
  - irahul 15y ago
    > * My grandfather was an alcoholic and caused lots of damage to my dad's infancy. So there is your problem right there - he was an alcoholic. All sorts of addictions and excesses are generally bad(addiction to tv, addiction to wasting t) - that doesn't mean you can generalize it to web is bad and tv is bad. > Drunk girls are raped by drunk stupid men all the time. My cousin got pregnant at 14 because of this. That argument is so ridiculous I don't event want to respond to this. "Girls get raped all the time while wearing skimpy clothes." Skimpy clothes should be banned. "Girls get raped all the time while going out at night." Girls shouldn't go out at nights. "Girls get raped all the time." Girls shouldn't exist. Seriously though, you are taking a serious instance of rape, and blaming it on being drunk? > Starting with social drinking, which means that some people are absolutely incapable of have social bonding or plain fun without any alcohol. Pathetic. You know, the world doesn't need your pathetic self to tell it how and how not to have fun.
  - burgerbrain 15y ago
    * Neglectful parents are a very important problem. * Drunk driving is a very important problem. * Rape is a very important problem. * And people demonizing me (a drinker) for crimes that I do not commit... is a very important problem. Put those pieces of shit in jail for the crimes they commit and let mature people (the vast majority of society) be. PS: Approximately 80% of all drunk drivers are adults (21 and older, I'll give you 20 as teenagers). So you should probably stop blaming teenagers so much too... Source: http://www.oas.samhsa.gov/NSDUH/2k10NSDUH/2k10Results.htm#Fig3-5 http://www.oas.samhsa.gov/NSDUH/2k10NSDUH/2k10Results.htm#Fi...
InclinedPlane 15y ago
"Giving" people a life doesn't work. It's infeasible and unrecommended to try to run people's lives for them, regardless of the high ideals you may have. Ultimately personal liberty has proven to be the only way to encourage the highest degree of personal happiness.

by Hisoka 15y ago

A society with so many ppl that rely so much on alcohol is just a symptom of even bigger problem. Give people a sense of purpose, or better community ties, and the need for "drugs" decreases

irahul 15y ago

> A society with so many ppl that rely so much on alcohol is just a symptom of even bigger problem. It's common for people who don't drink to assume alcohol is a big problem - it's not. > Give people a sense of purpose, or better community ties, and the need for "drugs" decreases People with sense of purpose, and better community ties, indulge in social drinking all too often. Never been to an entrepreneur's meetup which is in a bar? Never seen a family and friends getting drunk?

lewcypher 15y ago
orly? Alcohol is a very large problem, not least keeping people isolated and stuck in their lower self, see Timothy Learys writings on drugs and Chakras. http://pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/aa38.htm http://pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/aa38.htm
- irahul 15y ago
  > orly? Oh, really? Yes. > Alcohol is a very large problem, not least keeping people isolated and stuck in their lower self, see Timothy Learys writings on drugs and Chakras. http://pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/aa38.htm http://pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/aa38.htm Alcohol is not a problem, being an alcoholic is. Breaking news, excess of anything is generally bad. By your reasoning, tv is bad since excess tv is bad, food is bad since excess food is bad...The list goes on and on.
  - lewcypher 15y ago
    Fair enough, you have half a point there, though this is the whole 'guns don't kill people...' argument. In the context of western society alcohol abuse has been almost normalized, and binge drinking especially amongst young people is considered 'a fun night out'. You are right, alcohol abuse is the problem. As a society we abuse alcohol. TV and sports events are saturated with alcohol advertising, children are exposed from a very young age to alcohol (ab)use. Granted, there is nothing wrong with drinking in moderation, I enjoy a few beers myself. Though if there were an actually sane and evidenced based approach to drug policy, alcohol would be seen to be one of the most damaging drugs and would be regulated appropriately. Regulation meaning education, higher taxes on alcoholic beverages, a heavy restriction on advertising, and support for the sick people that are abusing it.
    - burgerbrain 15y ago
      Higher taxes on firearms works as a public policy, more or less. However, the 'higher taxes on dangerous things' model fails miserably when applied to addictive substances. This is evidenced directly in cigarette taxes, and indirectly in illegal substances. Addicts can literally chose their substance over food, and forget about rent and family members... A large portion of the suffering addicts endure can be traced directly back to financial hardships induced by the price of their substance. So not only does this sort of policy not work, but it is actively inhuman. Addicts need professional medical treatment, effectively telling them to 'just say no' is ignoring the reality of the situation. Not to mention you'll still have drunk rich jackasses in sportscars killing people (RIP Ryan Dunn)...
  - philwelch 15y ago
    I don't think you're really responding to his point. I'm rather in favor of alcohol myself, but there are some things that are just plain bad regardless of quantity. Food is good in moderation because without food you starve to death, but Twinkies are bad regardless of quantity; not only are they nutrient poor junk food, but they taste pretty disgusting compared to any kind of proper cake. And it's hard to come up with any redeeming qualities of cigarettes, either.
    - burgerbrain 15y ago
      Twinkies harm nobody in moderation, you just don't like them. Confusing "I don't like it" with "it's not good" is an unfortunate but seemingly quite common problem in society. You'll often see this manifest with so called "second hand smoke". When confronted with facts (such as for example, anti-second-hand-smoke laws are only necessary because OSHA recognizes the scientific fact that it doesn't pose a credible risk to heath (OSHA has air quality standards, and other people smoking does not trip them)), they often fall back on "well it smells bad".
- potatolicious 15y ago
  Lots of things are problem for people. World of Warcraft also does a marvelous job of keeping people isolated and stuck in their lower self. That doesn't mean: - the majority of its users can do use it responsibly without adverse effect on their lives and those around them - it needs to be banned, or even subject to extensive regulation - the act itself is the root cause of said destructive behavior. People who let WoW ruin their lives often had other severe issues to begin with. Among other things that can be highly self-destructive (and destructive to those around them) in the wrong hands: sports cars, the gym, fast food (>25% of the USA is obese, after all), online gaming, poker, literature... I could go on. Hell, ignoring the moral side of it for a moment, legislating morality just simply doesn't work. Disregarding the justifications of Prohibition, from a practical perspective it just made things worse: it created a major avenue of organized crime, and failed to stop the flow of alcohol anyways. If the people want to drink, or smoke pot, or play poker, or log onto WoW, or chow down on a burger, you can't stop it.
SoftwareMaven 15y ago
Tell that to the women who started the prohibition movement because they and their children were being beaten while their husbands drank their earnings away. Alcohol (like all drugs) has a very dark side (but it is just one side). To sweep it away so blithely is, IMO, exceedingly naive. Unfortunately, the conversations on these topics are too often "Your view is myopic. And my view is the only view that matters." We need more of the former and less of the latter.
- irahul 15y ago
  > Tell that to the women who started the prohibition movement because they and their children were being beaten while their husbands drank their earnings away. And how prevalent is that "wife beating" today? Alcohol exists, and "wife beating" has come down significantly. There are variables other than alcohol, and alcohol plays a very small part. > Alcohol (like all drugs) has a very dark side (but it is just one side). To sweep it away so blithely is, IMO, exceedingly naive. And to take it too seriously is ridiculous. > "Your view is myopic. And my view is the only view that matters." Like yours? Your view is the only one that matters, and other viewpoints in your opinion are exceedingly naive?
  - pg 15y ago
    Please stop.
armandososa 15y ago
* My grandfather was an alcoholic and caused lots of damage to my dad's infancy. * Teenagers are amazingly stupid already. They are stupid and dangerous when driving under the influence of alcohol. A very dear friend of mine was killed by a drunk driver. * Drunk girls are raped by drunk stupid men all the time. My cousin got pregnant at 14 because of this. When you don't drink is when you can really see how big of a problem alcohol really is. Starting with social drinking, which means that some people are absolutely incapable of have social bonding or plain fun without any alcohol. Pathetic.
- irahul 15y ago
  > * My grandfather was an alcoholic and caused lots of damage to my dad's infancy. So there is your problem right there - he was an alcoholic. All sorts of addictions and excesses are generally bad(addiction to tv, addiction to wasting t) - that doesn't mean you can generalize it to web is bad and tv is bad. > Drunk girls are raped by drunk stupid men all the time. My cousin got pregnant at 14 because of this. That argument is so ridiculous I don't event want to respond to this. "Girls get raped all the time while wearing skimpy clothes." Skimpy clothes should be banned. "Girls get raped all the time while going out at night." Girls shouldn't go out at nights. "Girls get raped all the time." Girls shouldn't exist. Seriously though, you are taking a serious instance of rape, and blaming it on being drunk? > Starting with social drinking, which means that some people are absolutely incapable of have social bonding or plain fun without any alcohol. Pathetic. You know, the world doesn't need your pathetic self to tell it how and how not to have fun.
- burgerbrain 15y ago
  * Neglectful parents are a very important problem. * Drunk driving is a very important problem. * Rape is a very important problem. * And people demonizing me (a drinker) for crimes that I do not commit... is a very important problem. Put those pieces of shit in jail for the crimes they commit and let mature people (the vast majority of society) be. PS: Approximately 80% of all drunk drivers are adults (21 and older, I'll give you 20 as teenagers). So you should probably stop blaming teenagers so much too... Source: http://www.oas.samhsa.gov/NSDUH/2k10NSDUH/2k10Results.htm#Fig3-5 http://www.oas.samhsa.gov/NSDUH/2k10NSDUH/2k10Results.htm#Fi...

InclinedPlane 15y ago

"Giving" people a life doesn't work. It's infeasible and unrecommended to try to run people's lives for them, regardless of the high ideals you may have. Ultimately personal liberty has proven to be the only way to encourage the highest degree of personal happiness.