11 ms·

I genuinely rather avoid any establishment that expects tips than feel obligated to pay tips. It does mean that I will never go to a restaurant or similar estab

I genuinely rather avoid any establishment that expects tips than feel obligated to pay tips. It does mean that I will never go to a restaurant or similar establishment, but the feeling of being obligated to pay some unsaid price just disgusts me. Either you say it upfront of there's no deal.

iudqnolq 5y ago
But it is clearly known up front. It's not printed on a sign, but neither is the rule you can't spit at the waitor. Both are clearly socially known.
- Mirioron 5y ago
  That's true. I guess it would be difficult to avoid places where this obligation exists without knowing about it beforehand.
- Symbiote 5y ago
  Some people avoid taking a holiday or business trip to India, because they don't like the constant harassment from street traders, the expectation to barter and bargain for everything, the ever-present concern that they're either overpaying or being ripped off. Some of these people also avoid travelling to the USA (and Canada) for similar reasons. Am I supposed to tip for this? Is this a $1 tip, or $5, or 15%? But the card terminal is giving a choice of only 20% or 25%... and is it better to leave cash anyway? (I'm sure you could explain every situation, just like an Indian can explain all the situations in India.)
  - laxmin 5y ago
    Barter? You are describing a Hippie taking a holiday, perhaps. I am in India and I never bargain, hate the pressure. You never have to bargain unless you are in a known tourist trap places, wanting to buy trinkets.
    - Symbiote 5y ago
      In my experience (which is a decade out of date for India, admittedly, although the point was more about the USA) being white makes me an obvious tourist, regardless of the situation. Any initial price will be 5-20× higher than an initial price you'd get. Fixed price markets and services like Uber are a welcome improvement, but there are still plenty of recent articles (mainly blogs) aimed at tourists concerning bargaining in India. ("Hippies" on holiday in most of Europe don't have to bargain.)
- lultimouomo 5y ago
  > It's not printed on a sign, but neither is the rule you can't spit at the waitor. Both are clearly socially known What kind of weak-ass restaurant hygiene laws do you have there?
- lolinder 5y ago
  > But it is clearly known up front. It's not printed on a sign, but neither is the rule you can't spit at the waitor. Both are clearly socially known. I've lived in the US all my life, and I'm still confused at when tips are required and when it's just a nice thing to do. Even order-at-the-counter places now ask for a tip (often pre-filled to 15%) at checkout. Are their employees being paid below minimum wage? I don't think so, but they know it's ambiguous enough that they can exploit the weird culture around tips. Where is the line for when a tip is required? If I pick up my food at the counter but they clean up the tables when I'm done, are those employees making less than minimum wage? If I order at the counter but someone brings me the food? The sit-down restaurant with a dedicated waiter is the easy case, but it's not the only case. There are a ton of ambiguous edge cases, and many, many restaurants are deliberately exploiting the uncertainty. The whole thing is a mess, and I totally sympathize with Europeans who get confused and just give up. (Not that it's okay not to tip as long as we have this confusing mess of a wage system. You just can't say that it's an easy social norm to understand and follow.)
CPLX 5y ago
Then you need to find a different country to hang out in. Much like you would if you felt that covering your genitals was a needless cultural construct that disgusts you. We live in a society.
- lostlogin 5y ago
  We do. And surely we can improve it?
  - CPLX 5y ago
    Perhaps. Don’t think you’re improving it by stiffing service workers on tips though.
    - dataexporter 5y ago
      Tipping culture in the US will never change unless millions of customers suddenly stop paying tips. When millions of customers stop paying tips at the same time if puts the pressure on establishments to start paying their employees fair wages. Customers should go on tip-strike
    - lostlogin 5y ago
      I don’t tip but also live somewhere with a far better minimum wage.
  - thaway2839 5y ago
    Not by not tipping the server who can legally be paid less than minimum wage by their employers.
    - dataexporter 5y ago
      Tipping culture in the US will never change unless millions of customers suddenly stop paying tips. When millions of customers stop paying tips at the same time if puts the pressure on establishments to start paying their employees fair wages. Customers should go on tip-strikes.

iudqnolq 5y ago

But it is clearly known up front. It's not printed on a sign, but neither is the rule you can't spit at the waitor. Both are clearly socially known.

Mirioron 5y ago
That's true. I guess it would be difficult to avoid places where this obligation exists without knowing about it beforehand.
Symbiote 5y ago
Some people avoid taking a holiday or business trip to India, because they don't like the constant harassment from street traders, the expectation to barter and bargain for everything, the ever-present concern that they're either overpaying or being ripped off. Some of these people also avoid travelling to the USA (and Canada) for similar reasons. Am I supposed to tip for this? Is this a $1 tip, or $5, or 15%? But the card terminal is giving a choice of only 20% or 25%... and is it better to leave cash anyway? (I'm sure you could explain every situation, just like an Indian can explain all the situations in India.)
- laxmin 5y ago
  Barter? You are describing a Hippie taking a holiday, perhaps. I am in India and I never bargain, hate the pressure. You never have to bargain unless you are in a known tourist trap places, wanting to buy trinkets.
  - Symbiote 5y ago
    In my experience (which is a decade out of date for India, admittedly, although the point was more about the USA) being white makes me an obvious tourist, regardless of the situation. Any initial price will be 5-20× higher than an initial price you'd get. Fixed price markets and services like Uber are a welcome improvement, but there are still plenty of recent articles (mainly blogs) aimed at tourists concerning bargaining in India. ("Hippies" on holiday in most of Europe don't have to bargain.)
lultimouomo 5y ago
> It's not printed on a sign, but neither is the rule you can't spit at the waitor. Both are clearly socially known What kind of weak-ass restaurant hygiene laws do you have there?
lolinder 5y ago
> But it is clearly known up front. It's not printed on a sign, but neither is the rule you can't spit at the waitor. Both are clearly socially known. I've lived in the US all my life, and I'm still confused at when tips are required and when it's just a nice thing to do. Even order-at-the-counter places now ask for a tip (often pre-filled to 15%) at checkout. Are their employees being paid below minimum wage? I don't think so, but they know it's ambiguous enough that they can exploit the weird culture around tips. Where is the line for when a tip is required? If I pick up my food at the counter but they clean up the tables when I'm done, are those employees making less than minimum wage? If I order at the counter but someone brings me the food? The sit-down restaurant with a dedicated waiter is the easy case, but it's not the only case. There are a ton of ambiguous edge cases, and many, many restaurants are deliberately exploiting the uncertainty. The whole thing is a mess, and I totally sympathize with Europeans who get confused and just give up. (Not that it's okay not to tip as long as we have this confusing mess of a wage system. You just can't say that it's an easy social norm to understand and follow.)

CPLX 5y ago

Then you need to find a different country to hang out in. Much like you would if you felt that covering your genitals was a needless cultural construct that disgusts you. We live in a society.

lostlogin 5y ago
We do. And surely we can improve it?
- CPLX 5y ago
  Perhaps. Don’t think you’re improving it by stiffing service workers on tips though.
  - dataexporter 5y ago
    Tipping culture in the US will never change unless millions of customers suddenly stop paying tips. When millions of customers stop paying tips at the same time if puts the pressure on establishments to start paying their employees fair wages. Customers should go on tip-strike
  - lostlogin 5y ago
    I don’t tip but also live somewhere with a far better minimum wage.
- thaway2839 5y ago
  Not by not tipping the server who can legally be paid less than minimum wage by their employers.
  - dataexporter 5y ago
    Tipping culture in the US will never change unless millions of customers suddenly stop paying tips. When millions of customers stop paying tips at the same time if puts the pressure on establishments to start paying their employees fair wages. Customers should go on tip-strikes.