7 ms·

This isn’t a “genocidal” war.

trhway 5y ago
Civilians are intentionally killed and forced from their land because they are of different ethnicity. That is called genocide and ethnic cleansing. Putin has been very clear in his speeches that "Ukrainian question" is the main issue here. Ukrainians being of different ethnicity want their own culture, state, etc. while Putin refuses their right for that on the basis of his claim that their ethnicity doesn't exist.
- just-ok 5y ago
  > because they are of a different ethnicity [citation needed]
  - trhway 5y ago
    read Putin speech declaring the war. The people are killed because they of different ethnicity and refuse to play Russians as Putin tries to force them. From his point of view there 2 types of people in Ukraine - Russians and "nazi and benderovcy" with the latter needing to be killed. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-02-24/full-transcript-vladimir-putin-s-televised-address-to-russia-on-ukraine-feb-24 https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-02-24/full-tran... and that is summary which says it better than i'd say: https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2022/2/23/22945781/russia-ukraine-putin-speech-transcript-february-22 https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2022/2/23/22945781/r... "Putin’s clearest answer yet came in a speech delivered on Monday. He believes that Ukraine is an illegitimate country that exists on land that’s historically and rightfully Russian ... Putin’s basic claim — that there is no historical Ukrainian nation worthy of present-day sovereignty " Edit to the commenter below: Your post is either factually incorrect, like about my account or my motivation or about "historically friendly relationship", or just some conclusions not supported by any facts. Nothing to argue about, especially that i already addressed some of these your conclusions in our previous thread https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30541386 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30541386
    - brabel 5y ago
      You have a throwaway account solely created to try to make us, Westerners, believe that the War by Russia is as evil as Hitler's War because it has the same root motivation: ethnic hatred with a genocidal goal. You may be motivated by your rage against Russia starting this terrible war, or it may be simple counter-propaganda, i.e. Ukrainians lowering themselves to the level they believe the enemy to be for the purpose of motivating despicable actions from either side. Your interpretation of the Russian motivation for the war shows either complete ignorance of the facts (the historically friendly relationship between Ukrainians and Russians within and across the borders of the two nations) or a disregard for truthness that can only be attributed to being a propagandist who will stop at nothing to get people to believe and do whatever it is you want them to. Some sources that might educate you a little bit: [1] https://www.chathamhouse.org/2021/05/myths-and-misconceptions-debate-russia/myth-11-peoples-ukraine-belarus-and-russia-are-one https://www.chathamhouse.org/2021/05/myths-and-misconception... (this is strongly anti-Russia, but describes in a much better way the relationship between Russians/Belarussians/Ukrainians and their "nationhood", unlike your distorted view of reality). [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrMiSQAGOS4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrMiSQAGOS4 - Why is Ukraine the West's Fault? Featuring John Mearsheimer (American geopolitics expert, while being less anti-Russia, also attributes blame to the West in this whole story)
      - rosndo 5y ago
        If you’re going to link Mearsheimer, you could also be honest enough to discuss what other geopolitics scholars think about his take.
        brabel 5y ago
        Please provide alternative view points from other scholars on geopolitics and we can happily discuss.
        rosndo 5y ago
        I’m not interested in having that conversation with you, just pointing out that this is one of the more extreme points of view on the table. It is certainly not a widely accepted one. You could for example read what Mearsheimers university of Chicago colleague Paul Poast, or Stanfords Michael McFaul have to say about this. They’ve gone as far as argue that it is exactly the absence of NATO expansion that is to blame for creating the permissive conditions for Putin's invasion. It’s hard to view linking only to Mearsheimer as anything but deliberate cherry-picking.
scrollaway 5y ago
Yes, it is. Russia wants to squash Ukraine out of existence. He’s going out of his way to get rid of the Ukrainian language and culture. For him, Ukraine is a part of Russia, and its independence and own culture is a threat to Russia. What is your argument that this isn’t genocidal, by definition?
- CheezeIt 5y ago
  By your own claims, and the definition of genocide.
  - scrollaway 5y ago
    > the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group. How does this not describe what’s happening? Could you not be obtuse, please, and either argue your point in more depth or say you’re wrong?
    - iisaev 5y ago
      Disclaimer: I am Russian, so you could count all of this as a russian propaganda. We don't want to kill a large number of people at all. In the first days of war, our army even had an order to somehow skip the fights with regular army and fight only so-called "volunteer batallions" - these are real, patented, nazis (google "azov battalion nazis" and you could find a lot of interesting photos). Of course, they failed and right now it is a bloody mess. But look at the videos captured cities - our troops didn't event drop the ukrainian flag and there are demonstrations: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7JIaJTSWoqQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7JIaJTSWoqQ Do you really think that this city looks like the city after the genocide? Come on. What we really want is no NATO bases everywhere near our border and now looks like the only way (idk, maybe there were others, but Putin decided so) to do it is to destroy ukrainian state completely (the state, not the people).
      - trhway 5y ago
        >Disclaimer: I am Russian, so you could count all of this as a russian propaganda. no need for disclaimer. The content of your post is a well familiar Russian propaganda. I'm Russian myself and watch it enough to know and understand. >We don't want to kill a large number of people at all. it just magically happens. You declared war and moved 200K people on armor invading the country, bombed the sh^t out of the country and all that without wanting to kill a large number people! You just wanted to kill a small number of people. That is borderline psychopathy. >fight only so-called "volunteer batallions" - these are real, patented, nazis before fighting nazis in other countries Russia should have taken care about its own nazism - on top of the already pretty much totalitarian regime Putin in his Ukrainian war speech openly declares basic cornerstones of nazism - like Lebensraum, Volksgemeinschaft, Blut and Boden and Dolchstoßlegende - as the foundations of his Ukrainian policy. And the Russians cheer Putin on that like Germans did Hitler in 1939. No wonder that, like back then in 1936 in Spain, people from all over the world are coming to Ukraine to fight fascism, this time the Russian fascism. >Do you really think that this city looks like the city after the genocide? looks like a genocide to me https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VE9WKybzkpY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VE9WKybzkpY . Russia conducts a campaign of indiscriminate artillery and air bombing of Ukrainian cities. For the artillery bombing of the Ukrainian cities Russia uses unguided Grad with classic and unguided Smerch with cluster munition. For air bombing it uses unguided bombs like FAB-250 (250kg/500lbs) and FAB-500 (500kg/1000lb) resulting in those tremendous destructions. Some of these bombs were found unexploded, and 2 days ago Ukraine shot down Su-34 when the plane was bombing Chernigov and captured the pilot who happened to be that Russian pilot infamous for his civilian bombing raids back then in Aleppo and who got celebrated by Putin and Assad for that. You of course is a good Russian boy regularly taking his daily dose of Russian propaganda. Like most of Russians you probably believe in the million times repeated to you by Russian propaganda "we only do high-precision strikes on military targets, and we never target civilian objects". The Russian "propagandons" (for non-Russian speakers - "propagandon" is combination of "propagandist" and Russian offensive word for "condom") are so sure that you eat their propaganda unquestionably that they don't even care to make any half-decent product. For example Russian official news yesterday on the channel 1 - the story where the reporter reports from an airfield on an airstrike conducted in Ukraine (https://rutube.ru/video/4b400cbcfbbd6c1b730b5e80138fe598/ https://rutube.ru/video/4b400cbcfbbd6c1b730b5e80138fe598/ starting timestamp 24:40 ). The plane takes off, supposedly performs "airstrike on a military target using air-to-ground missile" - they show computer game missile launch screen capture as the purported missile launch at 25:05 - and lands empty. So far so great. Now lets looks at the plane on take-off at timestamp 24:56 - the plane is loaded only with unguided bombs FAB-250. No high-precision, no air-to-ground missile that those propagandons were talking about. They again show a plane similarly loaded only with unguided bombs at 25:19, and show unguided bombs at 25:50 which are supposedly being loaded on the plane which just returned empty. So much for the high precision what Russians are made to enthusiastically believe their country is using in Ukraine. As Russia doesn't have much Su-34, and as this unit does the unguided bombing, it actually seems to be the unit which is bombing Chernigov (and they have 3 planes while the unit would normally be 4, ie. one is lost as mentioned above) >What we really want is no NATO bases everywhere near our border and now looks like the only way (idk, maybe there were others, but Putin decided so) to do it is to destroy ukrainian state completely (the state, not the people). wonderful expression of the God-like position of the "Great Russian chauvinism" - we decided to destroy your state. Ok, lets suppose for the minute that it is a real purpose of this war (while dismissing contradicting evidence like the killed civilians, destruction in the cities and millions of displace). Then i guess it would be completely reasonable that upon winning of this war the Ukrainians would completely destroy the Russian state (not the people) in order to provide for the future safety of Ukraine, don't you think so? By the way, NATO is an old news, you seems to failed to mention the nuclear and chemical weapons Zelensky was supposedly making to attack Russia. Or may be even you understand how stupid it sounds? Anyway, it works miracle for Russian internal propaganda, though even they seems to be hesitant to bring it up externally - just like you.

Civilians are intentionally killed and forced from their land because they are of different ethnicity. That is called genocide and ethnic cleansing. Putin has been very clear in his speeches that "Ukrainian question" is the main issue here. Ukrainians being of different ethnicity want their own culture, state, etc. while Putin refuses their right for that on the basis of his claim that their ethnicity doesn't exist.

just-ok 5y ago
> because they are of a different ethnicity [citation needed]
- trhway 5y ago
  read Putin speech declaring the war. The people are killed because they of different ethnicity and refuse to play Russians as Putin tries to force them. From his point of view there 2 types of people in Ukraine - Russians and "nazi and benderovcy" with the latter needing to be killed. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-02-24/full-transcript-vladimir-putin-s-televised-address-to-russia-on-ukraine-feb-24 https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-02-24/full-tran... and that is summary which says it better than i'd say: https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2022/2/23/22945781/russia-ukraine-putin-speech-transcript-february-22 https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2022/2/23/22945781/r... "Putin’s clearest answer yet came in a speech delivered on Monday. He believes that Ukraine is an illegitimate country that exists on land that’s historically and rightfully Russian ... Putin’s basic claim — that there is no historical Ukrainian nation worthy of present-day sovereignty " Edit to the commenter below: Your post is either factually incorrect, like about my account or my motivation or about "historically friendly relationship", or just some conclusions not supported by any facts. Nothing to argue about, especially that i already addressed some of these your conclusions in our previous thread https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30541386 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30541386
  - brabel 5y ago
    You have a throwaway account solely created to try to make us, Westerners, believe that the War by Russia is as evil as Hitler's War because it has the same root motivation: ethnic hatred with a genocidal goal. You may be motivated by your rage against Russia starting this terrible war, or it may be simple counter-propaganda, i.e. Ukrainians lowering themselves to the level they believe the enemy to be for the purpose of motivating despicable actions from either side. Your interpretation of the Russian motivation for the war shows either complete ignorance of the facts (the historically friendly relationship between Ukrainians and Russians within and across the borders of the two nations) or a disregard for truthness that can only be attributed to being a propagandist who will stop at nothing to get people to believe and do whatever it is you want them to. Some sources that might educate you a little bit: [1] https://www.chathamhouse.org/2021/05/myths-and-misconceptions-debate-russia/myth-11-peoples-ukraine-belarus-and-russia-are-one https://www.chathamhouse.org/2021/05/myths-and-misconception... (this is strongly anti-Russia, but describes in a much better way the relationship between Russians/Belarussians/Ukrainians and their "nationhood", unlike your distorted view of reality). [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrMiSQAGOS4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrMiSQAGOS4 - Why is Ukraine the West's Fault? Featuring John Mearsheimer (American geopolitics expert, while being less anti-Russia, also attributes blame to the West in this whole story)
    - rosndo 5y ago
      If you’re going to link Mearsheimer, you could also be honest enough to discuss what other geopolitics scholars think about his take.
      - brabel 5y ago
        Please provide alternative view points from other scholars on geopolitics and we can happily discuss.
        rosndo 5y ago
        I’m not interested in having that conversation with you, just pointing out that this is one of the more extreme points of view on the table. It is certainly not a widely accepted one. You could for example read what Mearsheimers university of Chicago colleague Paul Poast, or Stanfords Michael McFaul have to say about this. They’ve gone as far as argue that it is exactly the absence of NATO expansion that is to blame for creating the permissive conditions for Putin's invasion. It’s hard to view linking only to Mearsheimer as anything but deliberate cherry-picking.

scrollaway 5y ago

Yes, it is. Russia wants to squash Ukraine out of existence. He’s going out of his way to get rid of the Ukrainian language and culture. For him, Ukraine is a part of Russia, and its independence and own culture is a threat to Russia. What is your argument that this isn’t genocidal, by definition?

CheezeIt 5y ago
By your own claims, and the definition of genocide.
- scrollaway 5y ago
  > the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group. How does this not describe what’s happening? Could you not be obtuse, please, and either argue your point in more depth or say you’re wrong?
  - iisaev 5y ago
    Disclaimer: I am Russian, so you could count all of this as a russian propaganda. We don't want to kill a large number of people at all. In the first days of war, our army even had an order to somehow skip the fights with regular army and fight only so-called "volunteer batallions" - these are real, patented, nazis (google "azov battalion nazis" and you could find a lot of interesting photos). Of course, they failed and right now it is a bloody mess. But look at the videos captured cities - our troops didn't event drop the ukrainian flag and there are demonstrations: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7JIaJTSWoqQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7JIaJTSWoqQ Do you really think that this city looks like the city after the genocide? Come on. What we really want is no NATO bases everywhere near our border and now looks like the only way (idk, maybe there were others, but Putin decided so) to do it is to destroy ukrainian state completely (the state, not the people).
    - trhway 5y ago
      >Disclaimer: I am Russian, so you could count all of this as a russian propaganda. no need for disclaimer. The content of your post is a well familiar Russian propaganda. I'm Russian myself and watch it enough to know and understand. >We don't want to kill a large number of people at all. it just magically happens. You declared war and moved 200K people on armor invading the country, bombed the sh^t out of the country and all that without wanting to kill a large number people! You just wanted to kill a small number of people. That is borderline psychopathy. >fight only so-called "volunteer batallions" - these are real, patented, nazis before fighting nazis in other countries Russia should have taken care about its own nazism - on top of the already pretty much totalitarian regime Putin in his Ukrainian war speech openly declares basic cornerstones of nazism - like Lebensraum, Volksgemeinschaft, Blut and Boden and Dolchstoßlegende - as the foundations of his Ukrainian policy. And the Russians cheer Putin on that like Germans did Hitler in 1939. No wonder that, like back then in 1936 in Spain, people from all over the world are coming to Ukraine to fight fascism, this time the Russian fascism. >Do you really think that this city looks like the city after the genocide? looks like a genocide to me https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VE9WKybzkpY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VE9WKybzkpY . Russia conducts a campaign of indiscriminate artillery and air bombing of Ukrainian cities. For the artillery bombing of the Ukrainian cities Russia uses unguided Grad with classic and unguided Smerch with cluster munition. For air bombing it uses unguided bombs like FAB-250 (250kg/500lbs) and FAB-500 (500kg/1000lb) resulting in those tremendous destructions. Some of these bombs were found unexploded, and 2 days ago Ukraine shot down Su-34 when the plane was bombing Chernigov and captured the pilot who happened to be that Russian pilot infamous for his civilian bombing raids back then in Aleppo and who got celebrated by Putin and Assad for that. You of course is a good Russian boy regularly taking his daily dose of Russian propaganda. Like most of Russians you probably believe in the million times repeated to you by Russian propaganda "we only do high-precision strikes on military targets, and we never target civilian objects". The Russian "propagandons" (for non-Russian speakers - "propagandon" is combination of "propagandist" and Russian offensive word for "condom") are so sure that you eat their propaganda unquestionably that they don't even care to make any half-decent product. For example Russian official news yesterday on the channel 1 - the story where the reporter reports from an airfield on an airstrike conducted in Ukraine (https://rutube.ru/video/4b400cbcfbbd6c1b730b5e80138fe598/ https://rutube.ru/video/4b400cbcfbbd6c1b730b5e80138fe598/ starting timestamp 24:40 ). The plane takes off, supposedly performs "airstrike on a military target using air-to-ground missile" - they show computer game missile launch screen capture as the purported missile launch at 25:05 - and lands empty. So far so great. Now lets looks at the plane on take-off at timestamp 24:56 - the plane is loaded only with unguided bombs FAB-250. No high-precision, no air-to-ground missile that those propagandons were talking about. They again show a plane similarly loaded only with unguided bombs at 25:19, and show unguided bombs at 25:50 which are supposedly being loaded on the plane which just returned empty. So much for the high precision what Russians are made to enthusiastically believe their country is using in Ukraine. As Russia doesn't have much Su-34, and as this unit does the unguided bombing, it actually seems to be the unit which is bombing Chernigov (and they have 3 planes while the unit would normally be 4, ie. one is lost as mentioned above) >What we really want is no NATO bases everywhere near our border and now looks like the only way (idk, maybe there were others, but Putin decided so) to do it is to destroy ukrainian state completely (the state, not the people). wonderful expression of the God-like position of the "Great Russian chauvinism" - we decided to destroy your state. Ok, lets suppose for the minute that it is a real purpose of this war (while dismissing contradicting evidence like the killed civilians, destruction in the cities and millions of displace). Then i guess it would be completely reasonable that upon winning of this war the Ukrainians would completely destroy the Russian state (not the people) in order to provide for the future safety of Ukraine, don't you think so? By the way, NATO is an old news, you seems to failed to mention the nuclear and chemical weapons Zelensky was supposedly making to attack Russia. Or may be even you understand how stupid it sounds? Anyway, it works miracle for Russian internal propaganda, though even they seems to be hesitant to bring it up externally - just like you.