6 ms·

Exactly… the projection that datacenters' demand for computing power won't be offset by silicon efficiency improvements is somewhat speculative; the projection

Exactly… the projection that datacenters' demand for computing power won't be offset by silicon efficiency improvements is somewhat speculative; the projection that Bitcoin's demand for computing power won't be offset by silicon efficiency improvements is obvious and is by design of the fucking system.

0thgen 5y ago
bitcoin mining provides an opportunity for anyone, anywhere to convert their computing resources into value. the competitive pressure is to have more efficient energy usage than your competitors so in reality, bitcoin provides an direct incentive for more efficient computing (the kind that can't be handle with by building smaller, more efficient processors). it might do more to boost computational efficiency (and reduce emissions) than all the millions of pages of blogger platitude-ing flooding the internet
- user-the-name 5y ago
  Absolute bullshit. Bitcoin does not even use processors for mining, it uses massively specialised hardware that is absolutely useless for anything else. No advances in bitcoin mining will translate to gain in anything else. It also massively increases emissions and does nothing to decrease them. The difficulty adjustment algorithm of bitcoin will ensure that you always have to keep wasting more resources to mine, and will cancel out any gains you ever make. By design. Bitcoin is explicitly built to waste resources.
  - 0thgen 5y ago
    by specialized hardware, you mean GPUs? which are extremely useful for graphics, machine learning, and large-scale mathematical calculations? the gains to society that GPUs brought can't be understated. how do you think they run the climate-projection models? [1] and my argument is about second-order effects. even if bitcoin mining remains inefficient, the technological gains of directly incentivising lower energy usage than your competitors carries over to other markets / enterprises plus, bitcoin is scheduled to run out. so eventually the mining issue is moot a second-order prediction is obviously more noisy and holds less weight without any direct evidence, but 'lack of direct evidence' characterizes much of this debate [1]: https://blogs.nvidia.com/blog/2019/07/17/clima-climate-model/ https://blogs.nvidia.com/blog/2019/07/17/clima-climate-model...
    - user-the-name 5y ago
      No, nobody mines bitcoin on GPUs. Surely you would know that if you're here trying to make argument about it?
      - 0thgen 5y ago
        I was under the impression that standard bitcoin mining leveraged GPUs for the heavy lifting. If that's not the case I'm happy to know what does
        terminalcommand 5y ago
        There are ASIC chips as far as I know.
        user-the-name 5y ago
        That hasn't been the case for most of the decade. I already told you what does: Completely custom-built hardware that can do nothing but bitcoin mining, such as Antminers. For instance, here is a shipping container that burns 1 megawatt of power in a pure and complete waste of energy and carbon emissions: https://shop.bitmain.com/product/detail?pid=0002021123118285350583K2a0P505EF https://shop.bitmain.com/product/detail?pid=0002021123118285...
        0thgen 5y ago
        alright, in that case you're right, the processors seem wasteful though interestingly, the specialized processors alkso seem like an example of a second order effect of bitcoin: driving innovation towards more energy efficiency. (though the tradeoff here seems to be wasting materials versus wasting energy)
        floatboth 5y ago
        It's all the other shitcoins that are mined on GPUs.
- tremon 5y ago
  I'm sorry, what? Bitcoin mining has spawned an entire new industry focused solely on converting a scarce shared resource (electrical energy) into perceived personal profits. It is wasteful pollution on a global scale: a single bitcoin transaction consumes as much power as an average U.S. household does in 77 days (https://digiconomist.net/bitcoin-energy-consumption https://digiconomist.net/bitcoin-energy-consumption) It's a perfect example of the tragedy of the commons. The energy already wasted on bitcoin mining will never be recuperated by the efficiency gains you so eagerly (and without merit) ascribe to bitcoin.
  - 0thgen 5y ago
    So when bitcoin hits it's schedule max limit and can't be mined anymore, is the point moot? I guess the question is: how much of a total energy bill will it have racked up before we get to that point, and should we consider the likely improvements to computing efficiency when we start speculating about the long term impact "converting a scarce shared resource (electrical energy) into perceived personal profits" (1) is this entirely new?, and (2) it doesn't just exist for increasing profits, it provides a service: a digital cash infrastructure

0thgen 5y ago

bitcoin mining provides an opportunity for anyone, anywhere to convert their computing resources into value. the competitive pressure is to have more efficient energy usage than your competitors so in reality, bitcoin provides an direct incentive for more efficient computing (the kind that can't be handle with by building smaller, more efficient processors). it might do more to boost computational efficiency (and reduce emissions) than all the millions of pages of blogger platitude-ing flooding the internet

user-the-name 5y ago
Absolute bullshit. Bitcoin does not even use processors for mining, it uses massively specialised hardware that is absolutely useless for anything else. No advances in bitcoin mining will translate to gain in anything else. It also massively increases emissions and does nothing to decrease them. The difficulty adjustment algorithm of bitcoin will ensure that you always have to keep wasting more resources to mine, and will cancel out any gains you ever make. By design. Bitcoin is explicitly built to waste resources.
- 0thgen 5y ago
  by specialized hardware, you mean GPUs? which are extremely useful for graphics, machine learning, and large-scale mathematical calculations? the gains to society that GPUs brought can't be understated. how do you think they run the climate-projection models? [1] and my argument is about second-order effects. even if bitcoin mining remains inefficient, the technological gains of directly incentivising lower energy usage than your competitors carries over to other markets / enterprises plus, bitcoin is scheduled to run out. so eventually the mining issue is moot a second-order prediction is obviously more noisy and holds less weight without any direct evidence, but 'lack of direct evidence' characterizes much of this debate [1]: https://blogs.nvidia.com/blog/2019/07/17/clima-climate-model/ https://blogs.nvidia.com/blog/2019/07/17/clima-climate-model...
  - user-the-name 5y ago
    No, nobody mines bitcoin on GPUs. Surely you would know that if you're here trying to make argument about it?
    - 0thgen 5y ago
      I was under the impression that standard bitcoin mining leveraged GPUs for the heavy lifting. If that's not the case I'm happy to know what does
      - terminalcommand 5y ago
        There are ASIC chips as far as I know.
      - user-the-name 5y ago
        That hasn't been the case for most of the decade. I already told you what does: Completely custom-built hardware that can do nothing but bitcoin mining, such as Antminers. For instance, here is a shipping container that burns 1 megawatt of power in a pure and complete waste of energy and carbon emissions: https://shop.bitmain.com/product/detail?pid=0002021123118285350583K2a0P505EF https://shop.bitmain.com/product/detail?pid=0002021123118285...
        0thgen 5y ago
        alright, in that case you're right, the processors seem wasteful though interestingly, the specialized processors alkso seem like an example of a second order effect of bitcoin: driving innovation towards more energy efficiency. (though the tradeoff here seems to be wasting materials versus wasting energy)
      - floatboth 5y ago
        It's all the other shitcoins that are mined on GPUs.
tremon 5y ago
I'm sorry, what? Bitcoin mining has spawned an entire new industry focused solely on converting a scarce shared resource (electrical energy) into perceived personal profits. It is wasteful pollution on a global scale: a single bitcoin transaction consumes as much power as an average U.S. household does in 77 days (https://digiconomist.net/bitcoin-energy-consumption https://digiconomist.net/bitcoin-energy-consumption) It's a perfect example of the tragedy of the commons. The energy already wasted on bitcoin mining will never be recuperated by the efficiency gains you so eagerly (and without merit) ascribe to bitcoin.
- 0thgen 5y ago
  So when bitcoin hits it's schedule max limit and can't be mined anymore, is the point moot? I guess the question is: how much of a total energy bill will it have racked up before we get to that point, and should we consider the likely improvements to computing efficiency when we start speculating about the long term impact "converting a scarce shared resource (electrical energy) into perceived personal profits" (1) is this entirely new?, and (2) it doesn't just exist for increasing profits, it provides a service: a digital cash infrastructure