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Traditional western music assigns 12 notes to an octave using a tuning known as Twelve Tone Equal Temperament[1]. These twelve tones include whole tones and sem

by pythko 5y ago

Traditional western music assigns 12 notes to an octave using a tuning known as Twelve Tone Equal Temperament[1]. These twelve tones include whole tones and semitones. The vast majority of western music is composed exclusively using these twelve notes. I believe the GGP meant to refer to “microtones,” which are frequencies that don’t fall into the Twelve Tone Equal Temperament tuning system. These are commonly used in non-western music (Indian music is a typical example), and occasionally in some western music styles (blues, some jazz, some sub-genres of rock, maybe), but you’re not going to find microtones in most western music. The use of microtones would greatly expand the set of possible melodies, but those melodies would also sound very weird to someone who has grown up listening to western music. Also, these legal cases are not decided by precisely comparing the relative frequencies of notes in two different melodies. Relating all this to the article, I personally feel like music is not a good parallel for the topic of academic plagiarism since the idea is the whole point of academic papers, whereas the point of music is harder to pin down, but it’s certainly not only to expand the set of melodies and chords used in songs. Anyways, for more on music theory, I’d suggest Adam Neely’s YouTube channel [2]. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/12_equal_temperament https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/12_equal_temperament [2] such as this video: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ghUs-84NAAU https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ghUs-84NAAU

netizen-936824 5y ago
From your explanation, it feels like a pretty artificial constraint. Why have no "western" musicians used other tones say "oh we have no new melodies" but just don't include some very real possibilities? It's a bit odd from my perspective
- pessimizer 5y ago
  They do, but it's difficult because instruments aren't built for it, and people don't like it. You're free to use any tone you like to make the music that you want to make.
  - netizen-936824 5y ago
    Perhaps people don't like it because they aren't familiar with it? Maybe all it would take is artists slowly incorporating new tones and patterns slowly for people to become accustomed
- pythko 5y ago
  It is artificial, in the sense that the western twelve tone scale is essentially arbitrary (why not 6? why not 16?), and it is a constraint in the sense that what most people consider “in tune” is defined by what they’ve gotten used to hearing. Culturally, in western music, that is twelve notes to an octave. People from all cultures can and do use notes from outside those twelve tones in music. In western music, sometimes you’ll notice (check out King Gizzard and the Lizard Wizard[1]), and sometimes you probably won’t (that “raspiness” in blues music is usually because they’re singing/playing a note slightly “out of tune” aka “microtonally”). Music and “what sounds good” is a cultural construct, and I’d encourage you to check out music from around the world as well experimental microtonal artists if you’re interested in hearing what happens when you aren’t tied to the idea of twelve notes in an octave. [1] https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=U72rbtrufws https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=U72rbtrufws
  - netizen-936824 5y ago
    Personally I quite enjoy when my expectations are broken by interesting patterns in music. I enjoy a lot of 'experimental' stuff. Again this is just my personal preference, but most of the popular music in the US I find boring because it all seems to be rehashes of the same patterns, just getting louder. I wish more people were exposed to a wider variety of types and patterns in music, there's a lot of great sounding music out there which breaks the usual mold played on radio stations
    - vericiab 5y ago
      I'd guess personal preference of the musicians themselves is part of the reason microtones aren't more common in "western" music. Most of the musicians that I personally know at least seem to prefer creating/performing music that sounds good to them. And compared to non-musicians, most of them are also more aware of and bothered by notes that are "out of tune", especially ones with "classical" training.
    - neverminder 5y ago
      > I wish more people were exposed to a wider variety of types and patterns in music, there's a lot of great sounding music out there which breaks the usual mold played on radio stations The 12 tone standard didn't just come out of nowhere, it is dominant for a reason. It developed throughout the entire existence of humanity. Think about it, currently the scientific consensus is that singing actually came before speaking. It's those 12 tones that create the best sounding melodies and harmonies. The greatest composers of all time used them. Maybe you're a guy who likes impro jazz (which coincidentally uses micro tones), but most people don't.

by pythko 5y ago

netizen-936824 5y ago

From your explanation, it feels like a pretty artificial constraint. Why have no "western" musicians used other tones say "oh we have no new melodies" but just don't include some very real possibilities? It's a bit odd from my perspective

pessimizer 5y ago
They do, but it's difficult because instruments aren't built for it, and people don't like it. You're free to use any tone you like to make the music that you want to make.
- netizen-936824 5y ago
  Perhaps people don't like it because they aren't familiar with it? Maybe all it would take is artists slowly incorporating new tones and patterns slowly for people to become accustomed
pythko 5y ago
It is artificial, in the sense that the western twelve tone scale is essentially arbitrary (why not 6? why not 16?), and it is a constraint in the sense that what most people consider “in tune” is defined by what they’ve gotten used to hearing. Culturally, in western music, that is twelve notes to an octave. People from all cultures can and do use notes from outside those twelve tones in music. In western music, sometimes you’ll notice (check out King Gizzard and the Lizard Wizard[1]), and sometimes you probably won’t (that “raspiness” in blues music is usually because they’re singing/playing a note slightly “out of tune” aka “microtonally”). Music and “what sounds good” is a cultural construct, and I’d encourage you to check out music from around the world as well experimental microtonal artists if you’re interested in hearing what happens when you aren’t tied to the idea of twelve notes in an octave. [1] https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=U72rbtrufws https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=U72rbtrufws
- netizen-936824 5y ago
  Personally I quite enjoy when my expectations are broken by interesting patterns in music. I enjoy a lot of 'experimental' stuff. Again this is just my personal preference, but most of the popular music in the US I find boring because it all seems to be rehashes of the same patterns, just getting louder. I wish more people were exposed to a wider variety of types and patterns in music, there's a lot of great sounding music out there which breaks the usual mold played on radio stations
  - vericiab 5y ago
    I'd guess personal preference of the musicians themselves is part of the reason microtones aren't more common in "western" music. Most of the musicians that I personally know at least seem to prefer creating/performing music that sounds good to them. And compared to non-musicians, most of them are also more aware of and bothered by notes that are "out of tune", especially ones with "classical" training.
  - neverminder 5y ago
    > I wish more people were exposed to a wider variety of types and patterns in music, there's a lot of great sounding music out there which breaks the usual mold played on radio stations The 12 tone standard didn't just come out of nowhere, it is dominant for a reason. It developed throughout the entire existence of humanity. Think about it, currently the scientific consensus is that singing actually came before speaking. It's those 12 tones that create the best sounding melodies and harmonies. The greatest composers of all time used them. Maybe you're a guy who likes impro jazz (which coincidentally uses micro tones), but most people don't.