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> Orwellian oppression is very visible 1984 makes a fairly strong point that this is not true. The proles do not conceive of the fact that they are oppressed.

> Orwellian oppression is very visible 1984 makes a fairly strong point that this is not true. The proles do not conceive of the fact that they are oppressed. Only the outer party can even think this, and at best its a muted response. Newspeak is about making it impossible to see or conceptualize oppression or injustice.

jancsika 5y ago
> Newspeak is about making it impossible to see or conceptualize oppression or injustice. But were the proles forced to use Newspeak? I thought they were singing folks songs and stuff...
- robocat 5y ago
  Newspeak was primarily for the political classes, with the aim of absolute political control: ultimate authoritarianism of a system of thought (also see Sapir–Whorf hypothesis). By controlling language, all dissenting political opinions could be prevented, with the eventual goal that any thought that wasn’t the official line (such as liberty) could have only the single word ‘crimethink’ to describe it. Big brother and Emmanuel Goldstein (the revolutionary against the state) were fictions of the system, permanent idealised placeholders for the system. The system rules: people within the political system are trained by the system to be perfect cogs with zero independent thought, and the higher up in the hierarchy the less control and more mechanically thought-constricted the person became. Over time the system restricted thought, restricted language, and as the political class were replaced over the decades, the upcoming people were evermore controlled by the system. The only goal of the system was complete and total control. The proles made up the majority of the population, but are almost invisible in the book, which leads to some odd Internet comments. The proles have zero political thought, and they live short lives of poverty. The proles are programmed to be interested in meaningless songs (produced by the versificator machine), meaningless persuits (such as lotteries), and other diversions. The proles do not speak newspeak, because they are not political. They certainly didn’t sing traditional folk songs (English aka ‘oldspeak’ is slowly abridged, removing all political words and nuances, and old literature is destroyed by rewriting it to remove all political nuance). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newspeak https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newspeak https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thoughtcrime https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thoughtcrime https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_relativity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_relativity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Brother_(Nineteen_Eighty-Four) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Brother_(Nineteen_Eighty-F... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emmanuel_Goldstein https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emmanuel_Goldstein
- NikolaeVarius 5y ago
  I dont think the proles were, since they were already in a state where they could not recognize they were under the Party's boot. "The proles are free" Newspeak was supposed to stamp out "bad" thoughts from members the party.
native_samples 5y ago
Ironically, the article and this discussion seems like a good case in point! "Totalitarianism was Orwell's Nineteen Eighty-Four, in which the state controlled everyone through the infliction of pain and terror" That sounds far closer to our current existence than BNW. Where are my bread and circuses? Circuses were shut down for much of the last two years, because of the need to fight an ever-shifting war against a terrifying virus ... a danger that cannot be directly perceived because almost everyone who gets it has mild symptoms and recover after a few days, but which rather, can only be truly perceived through the telescreen in our living rooms and the pronouncements of the ruling classes. The parallels to 1984 are everywhere recent times, yet the majority cannot see them. Newspeak is in abundance. Policies change overnight and yet the Party claims that the policy was always the same, previously famous people get erased instantly the moment they object, and the population is trained to demand their own oppression, believing ultra-harsh conditions to be an expression of love.

jancsika 5y ago

> Newspeak is about making it impossible to see or conceptualize oppression or injustice. But were the proles forced to use Newspeak? I thought they were singing folks songs and stuff...

robocat 5y ago
Newspeak was primarily for the political classes, with the aim of absolute political control: ultimate authoritarianism of a system of thought (also see Sapir–Whorf hypothesis). By controlling language, all dissenting political opinions could be prevented, with the eventual goal that any thought that wasn’t the official line (such as liberty) could have only the single word ‘crimethink’ to describe it. Big brother and Emmanuel Goldstein (the revolutionary against the state) were fictions of the system, permanent idealised placeholders for the system. The system rules: people within the political system are trained by the system to be perfect cogs with zero independent thought, and the higher up in the hierarchy the less control and more mechanically thought-constricted the person became. Over time the system restricted thought, restricted language, and as the political class were replaced over the decades, the upcoming people were evermore controlled by the system. The only goal of the system was complete and total control. The proles made up the majority of the population, but are almost invisible in the book, which leads to some odd Internet comments. The proles have zero political thought, and they live short lives of poverty. The proles are programmed to be interested in meaningless songs (produced by the versificator machine), meaningless persuits (such as lotteries), and other diversions. The proles do not speak newspeak, because they are not political. They certainly didn’t sing traditional folk songs (English aka ‘oldspeak’ is slowly abridged, removing all political words and nuances, and old literature is destroyed by rewriting it to remove all political nuance). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newspeak https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newspeak https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thoughtcrime https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thoughtcrime https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_relativity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_relativity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Brother_(Nineteen_Eighty-Four) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Brother_(Nineteen_Eighty-F... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emmanuel_Goldstein https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emmanuel_Goldstein
NikolaeVarius 5y ago
I dont think the proles were, since they were already in a state where they could not recognize they were under the Party's boot. "The proles are free" Newspeak was supposed to stamp out "bad" thoughts from members the party.

native_samples 5y ago

Ironically, the article and this discussion seems like a good case in point! "Totalitarianism was Orwell's Nineteen Eighty-Four, in which the state controlled everyone through the infliction of pain and terror" That sounds far closer to our current existence than BNW. Where are my bread and circuses? Circuses were shut down for much of the last two years, because of the need to fight an ever-shifting war against a terrifying virus ... a danger that cannot be directly perceived because almost everyone who gets it has mild symptoms and recover after a few days, but which rather, can only be truly perceived through the telescreen in our living rooms and the pronouncements of the ruling classes. The parallels to 1984 are everywhere recent times, yet the majority cannot see them. Newspeak is in abundance. Policies change overnight and yet the Party claims that the policy was always the same, previously famous people get erased instantly the moment they object, and the population is trained to demand their own oppression, believing ultra-harsh conditions to be an expression of love.