5 ms·

is that true though? CP on Etherium blockchain is a well known problem, and no prosecution jurisdiction is doing anything about it. Who would even have jurisdic

is that true though? CP on Etherium blockchain is a well known problem, and no prosecution jurisdiction is doing anything about it. Who would even have jurisdiction on something so decentralised? Sure you could shut down some nodes, but not all of them. And even then new nodes would pop up vastly more quickly than you can kill them. So prosecutors really are powerless. I think. Am I wrong?

alkonaut 5y ago
Could the reasoning behind that not simply be that there is only finite resources to use so you want to target where you get the most effect for the least resource and “CP on blockchains” ends up way down in that priority list?
acdha 5y ago
That’s why I put it in terms of how much they care. I’d be surprised if there is something on the Ethereum chain itself because it’d cost a small fortune but if there was, the authorities could easily require all companies to block access to those records, filter network traffic for all but the most determined users, etc. because it’s a complex always-on network system with a fair amount of volume. The underlying problem here is discoverability. If I can find your content, so can the police. If sharing it is personally risky, most people won’t and they feel who do won’t for long. Censorship has never relied on absolutely preventing anyone from saying something prohibited — it’s always the potential for retroactive consequences. This is why successful movements have generally needed outside support, anonymous communications (e.g. printed samizdat which is most risky if they catch you when you’re actually in possession of it), or some kind of social network which is hard to infiltrate (family, religion, etc.).
- magicjosh 5y ago
  I'm curious about what exactly a "small fortune" would be to post an image to the Bitcoin blockchain. For example, the Bitcoin Whitepaper PDF was embedded into the blockchain as 20kb. Here's a link to the specific transaction, encoded as a transaction with 947 outputs that hold the data: https://www.blockchain.com/btc/tx/54e48e5f5c656b26c3bca14a8c95aa583d07ebe84dde3b7dd4a78f4e4186e713 https://www.blockchain.com/btc/tx/54e48e5f5c656b26c3bca14a8c... Looking at the record, this transaction cost 198724 bytes. https://btc.network/estimate https://btc.network/estimate suggests that a transaction with 198724 bytes would cost about $200. Not bad! Anyone up for posting a picture of Tank Man to the blockchain for $200? Ah I googled to check and -- of course it's already been done in 2017: https://www.vice.com/en/article/z4k73w/someone-put-the-tiananmen-square-tank-man-image-in-the-bitcoin-blockchain-to-troll-china https://www.vice.com/en/article/z4k73w/someone-put-the-tiana...
  - acdha 5y ago
    Heh, thanks for digging up a the current price. I guess the other point there would be that you don’t need a high-res video to get in trouble in many cases — an Uighur with a VGA-quality image is probably still toast if the police catch them.
tablespoon 5y ago
> So prosecutors really are powerless. I think. Am I wrong? Yes, you're wrong. > Sure you could shut down some nodes, but not all of them. And even then new nodes would pop up vastly more quickly than you can kill them. Your error is here. If prosecutors actually decide to start shutting down nodes because of CP and make successful prosecutions, it will deter people from running new nodes in that jurisdiction. If hosting a copy of the Etherium blockchain had a high chance of landing you in jail for CP possession, would you start up a new node to replace one that was shut down? Instead of "new nodes ... pop[ping] up vastly more quickly than you can kill them," most operators would get scared and quickly shut down their nodes and wipe their HDs, and the rest would get prosecuted. Maybe you'd have a few stragglers hiding out on Tor, but at that point the network is unusable for any legitimate use. Don't believe me? There's even been a recent example of something like that. China banned Bitcoin mining, and the miners there shut down or GTFO of China: https://fortune.com/2021/11/17/china-bitcoin-mining-ban-crypto-holdouts-ether-solana-price/ https://fortune.com/2021/11/17/china-bitcoin-mining-ban-cryp... > Available data shows that crypto mining no longer exists in China and that China's crypto mining ban completely upended the global Bitcoin mining industry. China went from controlling up to two-thirds of all Bitcoin mining in the world in April to not contributing to the industry at all as of July 2021, according to data compiled by the University of Cambridge’s Centre for Alternative Finance. And anecdotal evidence suggests that the vast majority of Chinese Bitcoin miners relocated their operations to places like Kazakhstan, the U.S., and Canada or simply sold off their equipment at discounted prices and left the industry.
- soco 5y ago
  And I really hope that there wouldn't be that many with such a vested interest in CP to fight against those shutdowns.
- notch656a 5y ago
  Bitcoin survival isn't predicated on mass mining farms of the sort that are easily shutdown in china and elsewhere. Running nodes yields more revenue the higher proportion of the hash rate you have. Making it illegal just makes it that much more profitable to run nodes in difficult to shut down ways, such as a cell phone powered by a solar array running tor and a miner. The market will provide.

alkonaut 5y ago

Could the reasoning behind that not simply be that there is only finite resources to use so you want to target where you get the most effect for the least resource and “CP on blockchains” ends up way down in that priority list?

acdha 5y ago

That’s why I put it in terms of how much they care. I’d be surprised if there is something on the Ethereum chain itself because it’d cost a small fortune but if there was, the authorities could easily require all companies to block access to those records, filter network traffic for all but the most determined users, etc. because it’s a complex always-on network system with a fair amount of volume. The underlying problem here is discoverability. If I can find your content, so can the police. If sharing it is personally risky, most people won’t and they feel who do won’t for long. Censorship has never relied on absolutely preventing anyone from saying something prohibited — it’s always the potential for retroactive consequences. This is why successful movements have generally needed outside support, anonymous communications (e.g. printed samizdat which is most risky if they catch you when you’re actually in possession of it), or some kind of social network which is hard to infiltrate (family, religion, etc.).

magicjosh 5y ago
I'm curious about what exactly a "small fortune" would be to post an image to the Bitcoin blockchain. For example, the Bitcoin Whitepaper PDF was embedded into the blockchain as 20kb. Here's a link to the specific transaction, encoded as a transaction with 947 outputs that hold the data: https://www.blockchain.com/btc/tx/54e48e5f5c656b26c3bca14a8c95aa583d07ebe84dde3b7dd4a78f4e4186e713 https://www.blockchain.com/btc/tx/54e48e5f5c656b26c3bca14a8c... Looking at the record, this transaction cost 198724 bytes. https://btc.network/estimate https://btc.network/estimate suggests that a transaction with 198724 bytes would cost about $200. Not bad! Anyone up for posting a picture of Tank Man to the blockchain for $200? Ah I googled to check and -- of course it's already been done in 2017: https://www.vice.com/en/article/z4k73w/someone-put-the-tiananmen-square-tank-man-image-in-the-bitcoin-blockchain-to-troll-china https://www.vice.com/en/article/z4k73w/someone-put-the-tiana...
- acdha 5y ago
  Heh, thanks for digging up a the current price. I guess the other point there would be that you don’t need a high-res video to get in trouble in many cases — an Uighur with a VGA-quality image is probably still toast if the police catch them.

tablespoon 5y ago

> So prosecutors really are powerless. I think. Am I wrong? Yes, you're wrong. > Sure you could shut down some nodes, but not all of them. And even then new nodes would pop up vastly more quickly than you can kill them. Your error is here. If prosecutors actually decide to start shutting down nodes because of CP and make successful prosecutions, it will deter people from running new nodes in that jurisdiction. If hosting a copy of the Etherium blockchain had a high chance of landing you in jail for CP possession, would you start up a new node to replace one that was shut down? Instead of "new nodes ... pop[ping] up vastly more quickly than you can kill them," most operators would get scared and quickly shut down their nodes and wipe their HDs, and the rest would get prosecuted. Maybe you'd have a few stragglers hiding out on Tor, but at that point the network is unusable for any legitimate use. Don't believe me? There's even been a recent example of something like that. China banned Bitcoin mining, and the miners there shut down or GTFO of China: https://fortune.com/2021/11/17/china-bitcoin-mining-ban-crypto-holdouts-ether-solana-price/ https://fortune.com/2021/11/17/china-bitcoin-mining-ban-cryp... > Available data shows that crypto mining no longer exists in China and that China's crypto mining ban completely upended the global Bitcoin mining industry. China went from controlling up to two-thirds of all Bitcoin mining in the world in April to not contributing to the industry at all as of July 2021, according to data compiled by the University of Cambridge’s Centre for Alternative Finance. And anecdotal evidence suggests that the vast majority of Chinese Bitcoin miners relocated their operations to places like Kazakhstan, the U.S., and Canada or simply sold off their equipment at discounted prices and left the industry.

soco 5y ago
And I really hope that there wouldn't be that many with such a vested interest in CP to fight against those shutdowns.
notch656a 5y ago
Bitcoin survival isn't predicated on mass mining farms of the sort that are easily shutdown in china and elsewhere. Running nodes yields more revenue the higher proportion of the hash rate you have. Making it illegal just makes it that much more profitable to run nodes in difficult to shut down ways, such as a cell phone powered by a solar array running tor and a miner. The market will provide.