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The freelancer's story seems a little suspicious to me. "Let me translate this. Robin has been using someone else’s credit card for two years..." followed by "

The freelancer's story seems a little suspicious to me. "Let me translate this. Robin has been using someone else’s credit card for two years..." followed by "I’m on very good terms with Robin." Clearly, 'Robin' is a thief and it is entirely possible that Robin and the freelancer are one and the same. That the freelancer is not asking Robin for the money even though he knows him personally is telling. Does the freelancer wonder what his good client Robin thinks about the fact that Robin ran up a 12K credit card bill(payable to the freelancer, ultimately) that Robin never paid?(And we know the bill was never paid or there would be no need for the claw-back) And I did not see any mention of where Upwork contacted Robin. Strange considering he was the one with “a credit card connected in his account that wasn’t actually his”. Is he still on the platform? And then he sent two years worth of work to Upwork to substantiate his claim to the money. But how could Upwork know that the work he sent was legitimately related to the transaction? Could he not have created a project request for something he had already built? Then he apparently logs ALL of his 'time' outside of the system. He said that this time was for "a brainstorming session and a few meetings" with Robin. 230 hours worth!? I notice that dates of the charge-back transactions were not provided. Was this 230 hours the entirety of the project or just a very small slice. He wrote that he had made more that 100K on Upwork and that he had other clients. That leads me to think that this 12K represented all or most of the billing on Robin's project. Was there any billing for actual implementation, or is it all brainstorming and meetings? This story does not add up to me. edit: I see in the graphic that apparently the work on Robin's project was for 1533 hours, so the 230 hours would have been just a portion. It makes me wonder what/how many other credit cards were used to pay for those other hours. Hard to believe Robin was above board for the first 1303 hours and then started paying with a stolen credit card.

mizzao 5y ago
I see... although I feel empathy for the author if he was scammed, it's important to make sure this isn't just an instance of laundering stolen a credit card through Upwork.
- Cederfjard 5y ago
  Then why draw attention by blogging about it?
  - n4bz0r 5y ago
    To speculate on a scam scenario a bit: I think the entire plan would be built on attracting those who'd jump on the bandwagon without thinking critically about the situation much, creating as much resonance in the Upwork community as possible, and thus "bullying" Upwork into paying the money before they'd have a chance to properly investigate. Given the attention the post has already received, I can't imagine how the "scammers" would be getting away with all this. But criminals aren't generally known to be very bright so I'd incline towards a risk assessment error on their part as, at this point, the situation seems be creating resonance not only among Upwork community, but probably among legal entities as well (which is quite ironic).
    - Operyl 5y ago
      At the same time, the post clearly states that the investigation is over. Nobody is rushing Upwork here, they’ve already finished.
  - tlogan 5y ago
    Scammers are not really bright. We get even angry support emails from users using trying different stolen CC - go figure…
bjornsing 5y ago
> This story does not add up to me. Agree. It's weird that there's no mention of either Upwork or the OP trying to get "Robin" to pay what he owes... But it could be benign. In a complex and emotionally charged situation it's all too easy to focus on the wrong things.
- saalweachter 5y ago
  ... is "Robin" a pseudonymous reference to "Robin Hood"?
  - shagie 5y ago
    Robin is one of the gender neutral names that doesn't expose any information or bias beyond the reader's. I've often used "Pat" as a name for a person where I don't want to imply one gender or another.
hajile 5y ago
If they did 90k of good business and are charging $50 per hour, the risk in scamming for such small rewards seems weird. If you’ve got a good client who’s paid on time, never caused issues, and you’ve met in person (and seems nice), then you don’t think too much when they explain away a small change in procedure. This is so common that most corporate training on fraud will mention this scenario one way or another. Its the natural confidence scheme that predators have used for millennia.
conductr 5y ago
Chargeback time window has probably passed for the first 1303 hours since they waited so long to issue chargeback. It could be a card associated with Robin’s previous employer which would also explain why the charges were left undetected for so long. Why wouldn’t he have logged the hours if he’s a scammer? Why would he go public with the story?
awillen 5y ago
I agree - what I don't get is that you can generally only reverse charges for a limited period of time, even for fraud. He said he worked with Robin for two years, but probably only 120 days worth could have been charged back. So yeah, like you said, based on total earnings, the amount of work charged back and the time he says he worked with Robin, it seems like the vast majority of his work on the platform would've been with Robin. And yeah, where's the righteous anger at Robin? All OP says about him is positive things, even though the situation is unambiguously one in which Robin is a scumbag and a thief if we accept the facts. Just a lot that seems sketchy here, and especially the way his profile has stuff like "84.2% of the businesses I worked with, got an investment & provided their investors with an ROI of more than 6X." - that kind of very specific stat about a particular return for a particular percent of people just feels very dubious to me.
crispyambulance 5y ago
It's incomprehensible to me why "Robin" isn't at the absolute center of the shit-storm here. What kinds of slick jedi-mind-tricks is Robin using to keep the OP from going after him and instead pleading with Upwork conflict resolution drones? Getting lawyers involved is always a nightmare scenario and a last resort, but in this case it certainly seems like that's a valid course of action.
- jVinc 5y ago
  > What kinds of slick jedi-mind-tricks is Robin using to keep the OP from going after him and instead pleading with Upwork conflict resolution drones? The absolute center of the problem here seems to be that Upwork has engineered a system where Robin is not in any way involved with this case. This is a case of a credit card owner creating a chargeback request against a developer. The fact that the developer can prove that the payments where given for delivered work doesn't matter to Upwork, because when they took that proof to the bank of the credit card owner and said "See there is proof services where provided for the payments" the owner said "I did not request that work". Back in reality, this is absolutely a problem for Upwork, and a problem that really should be at the very core of their business. If people can successfully chargeback any amount of money at any time scale because they payed with a creditcard they don't own, every single start-up should start making borrowing circles of credit cards for their first 10 years of development so they can claw it all back if they go bust and need to pivot. The very core of upworks business is to establish a truth worthy process for payment for services, and in this case where the process fails they are simply going "Oh, to bad for you, now go do the dishes until you've payed for the bill of the dinner dashers who just sprinted out after legally agreeing to pay your dinner as payment for 2 years work".
  - SpicyLemonZest 5y ago
    The question is whether Upwork actually did what this person is accusing them of. The most likely reason that the author isn’t mad at Robin, in my view, is that the author is not being entirely honest about what happened here.
    - 5y ago
yashap 5y ago
Looking at the “Who’s Al” page of the blog: > Each string of the violin possesses the power of coherent control. Call me a business violinist. Hi, I’m Al. In the business world, there’s talent, there’s hard work, and there’s the synchronization of these two “strings”. > I’m the merger of an investment consultant, a tech specialist, and a fintech enthusiast. > … > I specialize in investments related to Blockchain, Cryptocurrency, Fintech, Artificial Intelligence, among other tech ventures. Thick BS language, and operating in a space that is chock full of fraud and criminal activity, I think you’re right to be suspicious. Clearly the client was a fraudster, using a stolen credit card, and re: the consultant being a fraudster, the chance of someone describing themselves as a “blockchain cryptocurrency investment consultant” being involved in fraud seems significant to me.
lobocinza 5y ago
I log my hours "outside the system" because I have a better system (timewarrior) and I don't want to install a spyware on my computer. I don't fraud my clients and never had an issue in getting paid. It's not outside the system but just manually reported and you have till Monday 12:00 GMT to log past week work. What worries me is the lack of due time from Upwork and the bank. Fraud happens and is the cost of doing business and I wouldn't care about losing a week of work but two years is just surreal.
usefulcat 5y ago
Exactly. Author seems to go out of his way to point out what an upstanding person “Robin” is, yet never even mentions the possibility that Robin maybe ought to pay the freelancer what he’s owed for services already rendered?
LorenPechtel 5y ago
It might not be a stolen card. Note that it simply says "someone else's card". Maybe it's a corporate card, somebody in accounting decided to cause trouble. That goes along with why he's not mad at Robin--he realizes Robin was acting in good faith and the card owner is causing the trouble.
- jackatttack 5y ago
  I don't understand why that matters. If Robin was acting in good faith, he would pay the owed amount. Then the contractor would pay Upwork and everyone would be back where they started—the contractor would be made whole, Upwork would no longer have a 'lien' on the contractor's account, and Robin would be back in good standing.
  - LorenPechtel 5y ago
    I'm thinking Robin isn't the primary, but an employee. Robin isn't going to pay out of his own pocket for what should be a corporate expense.
cowvin 5y ago
Yep, this story sounds like an attempt to get social media pressure on Upwork to try to get them to cave. I mean if Robin used someone else's card to pay, he never paid anyone for the services he received. So it sounds like instead of being angry at Upwork, the author should be angry at Robin. Strange that he's not.

mizzao 5y ago

I see... although I feel empathy for the author if he was scammed, it's important to make sure this isn't just an instance of laundering stolen a credit card through Upwork.

Cederfjard 5y ago
Then why draw attention by blogging about it?
- n4bz0r 5y ago
  To speculate on a scam scenario a bit: I think the entire plan would be built on attracting those who'd jump on the bandwagon without thinking critically about the situation much, creating as much resonance in the Upwork community as possible, and thus "bullying" Upwork into paying the money before they'd have a chance to properly investigate. Given the attention the post has already received, I can't imagine how the "scammers" would be getting away with all this. But criminals aren't generally known to be very bright so I'd incline towards a risk assessment error on their part as, at this point, the situation seems be creating resonance not only among Upwork community, but probably among legal entities as well (which is quite ironic).
  - Operyl 5y ago
    At the same time, the post clearly states that the investigation is over. Nobody is rushing Upwork here, they’ve already finished.
- tlogan 5y ago
  Scammers are not really bright. We get even angry support emails from users using trying different stolen CC - go figure…

bjornsing 5y ago

> This story does not add up to me. Agree. It's weird that there's no mention of either Upwork or the OP trying to get "Robin" to pay what he owes... But it could be benign. In a complex and emotionally charged situation it's all too easy to focus on the wrong things.

saalweachter 5y ago
... is "Robin" a pseudonymous reference to "Robin Hood"?
- shagie 5y ago
  Robin is one of the gender neutral names that doesn't expose any information or bias beyond the reader's. I've often used "Pat" as a name for a person where I don't want to imply one gender or another.

hajile 5y ago

If they did 90k of good business and are charging $50 per hour, the risk in scamming for such small rewards seems weird. If you’ve got a good client who’s paid on time, never caused issues, and you’ve met in person (and seems nice), then you don’t think too much when they explain away a small change in procedure. This is so common that most corporate training on fraud will mention this scenario one way or another. Its the natural confidence scheme that predators have used for millennia.

conductr 5y ago

Chargeback time window has probably passed for the first 1303 hours since they waited so long to issue chargeback. It could be a card associated with Robin’s previous employer which would also explain why the charges were left undetected for so long. Why wouldn’t he have logged the hours if he’s a scammer? Why would he go public with the story?

awillen 5y ago

I agree - what I don't get is that you can generally only reverse charges for a limited period of time, even for fraud. He said he worked with Robin for two years, but probably only 120 days worth could have been charged back. So yeah, like you said, based on total earnings, the amount of work charged back and the time he says he worked with Robin, it seems like the vast majority of his work on the platform would've been with Robin. And yeah, where's the righteous anger at Robin? All OP says about him is positive things, even though the situation is unambiguously one in which Robin is a scumbag and a thief if we accept the facts. Just a lot that seems sketchy here, and especially the way his profile has stuff like "84.2% of the businesses I worked with, got an investment & provided their investors with an ROI of more than 6X." - that kind of very specific stat about a particular return for a particular percent of people just feels very dubious to me.

crispyambulance 5y ago

It's incomprehensible to me why "Robin" isn't at the absolute center of the shit-storm here. What kinds of slick jedi-mind-tricks is Robin using to keep the OP from going after him and instead pleading with Upwork conflict resolution drones? Getting lawyers involved is always a nightmare scenario and a last resort, but in this case it certainly seems like that's a valid course of action.

jVinc 5y ago
> What kinds of slick jedi-mind-tricks is Robin using to keep the OP from going after him and instead pleading with Upwork conflict resolution drones? The absolute center of the problem here seems to be that Upwork has engineered a system where Robin is not in any way involved with this case. This is a case of a credit card owner creating a chargeback request against a developer. The fact that the developer can prove that the payments where given for delivered work doesn't matter to Upwork, because when they took that proof to the bank of the credit card owner and said "See there is proof services where provided for the payments" the owner said "I did not request that work". Back in reality, this is absolutely a problem for Upwork, and a problem that really should be at the very core of their business. If people can successfully chargeback any amount of money at any time scale because they payed with a creditcard they don't own, every single start-up should start making borrowing circles of credit cards for their first 10 years of development so they can claw it all back if they go bust and need to pivot. The very core of upworks business is to establish a truth worthy process for payment for services, and in this case where the process fails they are simply going "Oh, to bad for you, now go do the dishes until you've payed for the bill of the dinner dashers who just sprinted out after legally agreeing to pay your dinner as payment for 2 years work".
- SpicyLemonZest 5y ago
  The question is whether Upwork actually did what this person is accusing them of. The most likely reason that the author isn’t mad at Robin, in my view, is that the author is not being entirely honest about what happened here.
  - 5y ago

yashap 5y ago

Looking at the “Who’s Al” page of the blog: > Each string of the violin possesses the power of coherent control. Call me a business violinist. Hi, I’m Al. In the business world, there’s talent, there’s hard work, and there’s the synchronization of these two “strings”. > I’m the merger of an investment consultant, a tech specialist, and a fintech enthusiast. > … > I specialize in investments related to Blockchain, Cryptocurrency, Fintech, Artificial Intelligence, among other tech ventures. Thick BS language, and operating in a space that is chock full of fraud and criminal activity, I think you’re right to be suspicious. Clearly the client was a fraudster, using a stolen credit card, and re: the consultant being a fraudster, the chance of someone describing themselves as a “blockchain cryptocurrency investment consultant” being involved in fraud seems significant to me.

lobocinza 5y ago

I log my hours "outside the system" because I have a better system (timewarrior) and I don't want to install a spyware on my computer. I don't fraud my clients and never had an issue in getting paid. It's not outside the system but just manually reported and you have till Monday 12:00 GMT to log past week work. What worries me is the lack of due time from Upwork and the bank. Fraud happens and is the cost of doing business and I wouldn't care about losing a week of work but two years is just surreal.

usefulcat 5y ago

Exactly. Author seems to go out of his way to point out what an upstanding person “Robin” is, yet never even mentions the possibility that Robin maybe ought to pay the freelancer what he’s owed for services already rendered?

LorenPechtel 5y ago

It might not be a stolen card. Note that it simply says "someone else's card". Maybe it's a corporate card, somebody in accounting decided to cause trouble. That goes along with why he's not mad at Robin--he realizes Robin was acting in good faith and the card owner is causing the trouble.

jackatttack 5y ago
I don't understand why that matters. If Robin was acting in good faith, he would pay the owed amount. Then the contractor would pay Upwork and everyone would be back where they started—the contractor would be made whole, Upwork would no longer have a 'lien' on the contractor's account, and Robin would be back in good standing.
- LorenPechtel 5y ago
  I'm thinking Robin isn't the primary, but an employee. Robin isn't going to pay out of his own pocket for what should be a corporate expense.

cowvin 5y ago

Yep, this story sounds like an attempt to get social media pressure on Upwork to try to get them to cave. I mean if Robin used someone else's card to pay, he never paid anyone for the services he received. So it sounds like instead of being angry at Upwork, the author should be angry at Robin. Strange that he's not.