6 ms·

I wish German media were as meticulous about reporting adverse side effects of the vaccines against COVID-19 as they are with reporting about the dangers of COV

by HMH 5y ago

I wish German media were as meticulous about reporting adverse side effects of the vaccines against COVID-19 as they are with reporting about the dangers of COVID-19 itself. The above findings are currently prominently displayed on tagesschau.de [1], whereas you can't even find the current number of suspected deaths after vaccinations (currently 1919 deaths after vaccination in Germany [2]) using the search utility [3]. Please note that this number is indeed newsworthy as this is the first update in months regarding deaths after vaccinations. [1]: https://www.tagesschau.de/inland/uke-studie-corona-101.html https://www.tagesschau.de/inland/uke-studie-corona-101.html [2]: https://www.pei.de/SharedDocs/Downloads/DE/newsroom/dossiers/sicherheitsberichte/sicherheitsbericht-27-12-20-bis-30-11-21.pdf?__blob=publicationFile&v=7 https://www.pei.de/SharedDocs/Downloads/DE/newsroom/dossiers... [3]: https://www.tagesschau.de/suche2.html?query=1919&sort_by=date https://www.tagesschau.de/suche2.html?query=1919&sort_by=dat...

piva00 5y ago
> I wish German media were as meticulous about reporting adverse side effects of the vaccines against COVID-19 as they are with reporting about the dangers of COVID-19 itself. Why?
- tomrod 5y ago
  In my experience, this is typically a "dog whistle" type statement that people who are anti-vaccination espouse. Conversation, when it does occur, will often lead to something like VAERS shows X,Y,Z (but without comparison of incidence to baseline population).
jacquesm 5y ago
Post hoc ergo propter hoc... they are not suspected, they are possible.
- DenisM 5y ago
  Covid deaths afaik are “death while having Covid”. Do you see a reason to apply a different standard to vaccines?
  - jacquesm 5y ago
    Frankly, I'm a bit puzzled by this comment. Either you are going for the comedic value, or you are actually serious in which case I am not sure where to begin to address your comment if by now you have not yet realized the difference between dying vaccinated and dying while COVID positive. On the off-chance that it is the second, and that you are really serious: 'Death while having COVID' does not equate 'death by COVID', it merely is something that is registered. A death certificate lists conditions around the time of death, and being COVID positive may (or may not, not everybody is tested, after all) result in a mention on the death certificate. If COVID is a part of the chain that led to the person dying then you are likely to see something mentioned in the area that is related to the cause of death, likely an infection with COVID will be listed there as well as for instance pneumonia, the direct cause of death. With the vaccines and their side effects, something similar happens: there is the possibility of a link, and when such a link is confirmed then that will cause all kinds of feedback loops to engage, which if the evidence points to the cure being worse than the disease may even lead to the vaccine being taken off the market, or, alternatively, to be restricted in its distribution based on whatever demographics turned up to have an adverse risk profile. I hope that answers your question, and that you understand now that there is really only one standard here.
    - DenisM 5y ago
      No need to insult my sincerity, the HN guidelines are perfectly clear - assume good faith. If you can’t just don’t reply at all, no need to trash the venue. Back to the topic at hand, you maybe right about what the death certificate says, but I am more concerned with what counts as a covid death in statistics. The CDC is pretty clear about that - any death where covid contributed is a covid death. Getting hit by a truck won’t count, but pneumonia certainly will. It seems that any cause of death that could come from covid is counted as covid death as long as the deceased was infected. Coronavirus disease deaths are identified using the ICD–10 code U07.1. Deaths are coded to U07.1 when coronavirus disease 2019 or COVID-19 are reported as a cause that contributed to death on the death certificate. https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/tech_notes.htm https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/tech_notes.htm Likewise I would expect death from vaccine to be, statistically speaking, any death by a vaccine-related cause within two weeks of being vaccinated. Perhaps my expectations are wrong, but they are certainly not unreasonable.
- HMH 5y ago
  Well, the security report itself talks about suspected cases (Verdachtsfallmeldungen in German), so I guess it's fair to call them that: > In 1.919 Verdachtsfallmeldungen wurde über einen tödlichen Ausgang in unterschiedlichem zeitlichem Abstand zur Impfung (0 Tage bis 289 Tage) berichtet. Also note that not every death after vaccination is reported, you need to fill a document with your symptoms [1]. So these are indeed very much suspected cases of adverse side effects / deaths. [1]: https://nebenwirkungen.bund.de/nw/DE/home/home_node.html https://nebenwirkungen.bund.de/nw/DE/home/home_node.html
  - detaro 5y ago
    > Also note that not every death after vaccination is reported, you need to fill a document with your symptoms Suspected severe reactions (and death certainly is that!) are not primarily self-reported, since there is a legal requirement for doctors etc to report them.

by HMH 5y ago

piva00 5y ago

> I wish German media were as meticulous about reporting adverse side effects of the vaccines against COVID-19 as they are with reporting about the dangers of COVID-19 itself. Why?

tomrod 5y ago
In my experience, this is typically a "dog whistle" type statement that people who are anti-vaccination espouse. Conversation, when it does occur, will often lead to something like VAERS shows X,Y,Z (but without comparison of incidence to baseline population).

jacquesm 5y ago

Post hoc ergo propter hoc... they are not suspected, they are possible.

DenisM 5y ago
Covid deaths afaik are “death while having Covid”. Do you see a reason to apply a different standard to vaccines?
- jacquesm 5y ago
  Frankly, I'm a bit puzzled by this comment. Either you are going for the comedic value, or you are actually serious in which case I am not sure where to begin to address your comment if by now you have not yet realized the difference between dying vaccinated and dying while COVID positive. On the off-chance that it is the second, and that you are really serious: 'Death while having COVID' does not equate 'death by COVID', it merely is something that is registered. A death certificate lists conditions around the time of death, and being COVID positive may (or may not, not everybody is tested, after all) result in a mention on the death certificate. If COVID is a part of the chain that led to the person dying then you are likely to see something mentioned in the area that is related to the cause of death, likely an infection with COVID will be listed there as well as for instance pneumonia, the direct cause of death. With the vaccines and their side effects, something similar happens: there is the possibility of a link, and when such a link is confirmed then that will cause all kinds of feedback loops to engage, which if the evidence points to the cure being worse than the disease may even lead to the vaccine being taken off the market, or, alternatively, to be restricted in its distribution based on whatever demographics turned up to have an adverse risk profile. I hope that answers your question, and that you understand now that there is really only one standard here.
  - DenisM 5y ago
    No need to insult my sincerity, the HN guidelines are perfectly clear - assume good faith. If you can’t just don’t reply at all, no need to trash the venue. Back to the topic at hand, you maybe right about what the death certificate says, but I am more concerned with what counts as a covid death in statistics. The CDC is pretty clear about that - any death where covid contributed is a covid death. Getting hit by a truck won’t count, but pneumonia certainly will. It seems that any cause of death that could come from covid is counted as covid death as long as the deceased was infected. Coronavirus disease deaths are identified using the ICD–10 code U07.1. Deaths are coded to U07.1 when coronavirus disease 2019 or COVID-19 are reported as a cause that contributed to death on the death certificate. https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/tech_notes.htm https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/tech_notes.htm Likewise I would expect death from vaccine to be, statistically speaking, any death by a vaccine-related cause within two weeks of being vaccinated. Perhaps my expectations are wrong, but they are certainly not unreasonable.
HMH 5y ago
Well, the security report itself talks about suspected cases (Verdachtsfallmeldungen in German), so I guess it's fair to call them that: > In 1.919 Verdachtsfallmeldungen wurde über einen tödlichen Ausgang in unterschiedlichem zeitlichem Abstand zur Impfung (0 Tage bis 289 Tage) berichtet. Also note that not every death after vaccination is reported, you need to fill a document with your symptoms [1]. So these are indeed very much suspected cases of adverse side effects / deaths. [1]: https://nebenwirkungen.bund.de/nw/DE/home/home_node.html https://nebenwirkungen.bund.de/nw/DE/home/home_node.html
- detaro 5y ago
  > Also note that not every death after vaccination is reported, you need to fill a document with your symptoms Suspected severe reactions (and death certainly is that!) are not primarily self-reported, since there is a legal requirement for doctors etc to report them.