5 ms·

> Putin is testing Germany's new government and the EU leadership. To me the current situation seems more self-inflicted than driven by Russia. Also it looks l

by HMH 5y ago

> Putin is testing Germany's new government and the EU leadership. To me the current situation seems more self-inflicted than driven by Russia. Also it looks like Gazprom is fulfilling its contract with Poland [1]. If my assessment is inaccurate please point me to some material for reading. [1]: https://www.reuters.com/article/power-prices-russia-gas-pgnig-idUSL8N2T61O6 https://www.reuters.com/article/power-prices-russia-gas-pgni...

LatteLazy 5y ago
Isn't the issue here that they're declining to sell extra? And energy companies normally contract for about half their customers need and buy the rest on the spot or near spot market?
- rad_gruchalski 5y ago
  Why would they sell extra when Germany is selling Russian gas to Poland and Ukraine and turning a profit? I have the same source as this comment from this discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29730855 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29730855
  - LatteLazy 5y ago
    Well I'm not saying they have to sell any at all. But if they don't they're responsible for higher prices and shortages etc. Also, the rules are pretty clear. You can't sell to Germany you can only sell to the whole EU or not. If you decide not to then why not say so and admit you're causing shortages and price spikes? Isn't that the whole point of this sort of diplomacy?
    - rad_gruchalski 5y ago
      > You can't sell to Germany you can only sell to the whole EU or not. That’s not how it works. Each country has its own contracts. Italian Eni has gas contracts with Gazprom, Hungarian MVM CEEnergy has separate contracts, Poland has individual contracts, Germany has their own. Gazprom delivers to 25 European countries.
    - emteycz 5y ago
      No, the ones who created this failed strategy are responsible.
      - LatteLazy 5y ago
        Which strategy? The Russian refusal to sell or the European reliance? A big part of European reliance dates back to Obama refusing to sell LNG from fracking. Again, countries have a right to (not) sell their gas as they see fit. I'm just saying this is all pretty muddy. It's more complex than good guy vs bad guy.
        emteycz 5y ago
        The European reliance of course. Expecting a KGB agent turned warlord to sell key resource for a good price forever without any strings attached is just crazy. If there's no good [local] source of gas, using gas is not a good idea.
        LatteLazy 5y ago
        That's great, but it worked fine for decades including under actual communists. And the EU has few other options. And their allies refuse to help. And it's those same allies that have upset Putin. So maybe not entirely their fault even if it is their problem (I'm a Brit for full disclosure)
        emteycz 5y ago
        That it worked fine for decades is no excuse. Europe should have been building nuclear reactors all day and night long instead of waiting until it inevitably stopped working - and/or allies stop helping. Maybe it's not as economical as renewables but at least it's actually capable to replace the gas.
        LatteLazy 5y ago
        So Europe should have spent trillions building a massive nuclear capacity and switching to all electric just because? Presumably every other country or trade block that imports energy needs to do the same? Seems a bit extreme no?

by HMH 5y ago

LatteLazy 5y ago

Isn't the issue here that they're declining to sell extra? And energy companies normally contract for about half their customers need and buy the rest on the spot or near spot market?

rad_gruchalski 5y ago
Why would they sell extra when Germany is selling Russian gas to Poland and Ukraine and turning a profit? I have the same source as this comment from this discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29730855 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29730855
- LatteLazy 5y ago
  Well I'm not saying they have to sell any at all. But if they don't they're responsible for higher prices and shortages etc. Also, the rules are pretty clear. You can't sell to Germany you can only sell to the whole EU or not. If you decide not to then why not say so and admit you're causing shortages and price spikes? Isn't that the whole point of this sort of diplomacy?
  - rad_gruchalski 5y ago
    > You can't sell to Germany you can only sell to the whole EU or not. That’s not how it works. Each country has its own contracts. Italian Eni has gas contracts with Gazprom, Hungarian MVM CEEnergy has separate contracts, Poland has individual contracts, Germany has their own. Gazprom delivers to 25 European countries.
  - emteycz 5y ago
    No, the ones who created this failed strategy are responsible.
    - LatteLazy 5y ago
      Which strategy? The Russian refusal to sell or the European reliance? A big part of European reliance dates back to Obama refusing to sell LNG from fracking. Again, countries have a right to (not) sell their gas as they see fit. I'm just saying this is all pretty muddy. It's more complex than good guy vs bad guy.
      - emteycz 5y ago
        The European reliance of course. Expecting a KGB agent turned warlord to sell key resource for a good price forever without any strings attached is just crazy. If there's no good [local] source of gas, using gas is not a good idea.
        LatteLazy 5y ago
        That's great, but it worked fine for decades including under actual communists. And the EU has few other options. And their allies refuse to help. And it's those same allies that have upset Putin. So maybe not entirely their fault even if it is their problem (I'm a Brit for full disclosure)
        emteycz 5y ago
        That it worked fine for decades is no excuse. Europe should have been building nuclear reactors all day and night long instead of waiting until it inevitably stopped working - and/or allies stop helping. Maybe it's not as economical as renewables but at least it's actually capable to replace the gas.
        LatteLazy 5y ago
        So Europe should have spent trillions building a massive nuclear capacity and switching to all electric just because? Presumably every other country or trade block that imports energy needs to do the same? Seems a bit extreme no?