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'If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor.' Rest in peace.

ttiurani 5y ago
The quote continues: "If an elephant has its foot on the tail of a mouse, and you say that you are neutral, the mouse will not appreciate your neutrality." The moral obligation Tutu captured with that aphorism has affected me immensely over the years. Also: “All of our humanity is dependent upon recognizing the humanity of others.”
Markoff 5y ago
[flagged]
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- jrmg 5y ago
  We know vaccine doesn't stop you from getting infected, we know vaccine doesn't stop you from spreading the virus. This is absolutist nonsense. It takes the truth and makes it imply something false. Vaccines make you less likely to become infected, and decrease viral load if you do get infected. So, even if you do become infected, the infection is milder and you are less likely to pass it on. In all these ways, (less likely to catch, milder infection, less likely to transmit) they provide protection to you and those around you.
  - Markoff 5y ago
    >Vaccines make you less likely to become infected complete nonsense based on some small studies while real world data contradict this, vaccinated makes same or higher proportion of infected than it's actual vaccination rate in many countries same with viral load especially now with Omicron vaccines were sold as effective against infection and transmission, them narrative moved to effective against mild symptoms, them narrative moved to effective against serious symptoms but I understand you I would have also buyer's remorse if I fell for this, trying to make everyone make same mistake add you did doesn't change a thing though
- wesleywt 5y ago
  You should get vaccinated and stop thinking you know better than people who are better tha you.
- kennywinker 5y ago
  Sober drivers kill people too, not just drunk drivers - yet we have no problem prohibiting driving drunk. But even that analogy breaks down because it’s been 1 year of vaccine’s existing, and in most places much less than 6 months of vaccine-only rules. This is a health crisis. Nobody wants or intends this to be forever. It’s like crying injustice because of a temporary ban on drunk driving.
- LarrySellers 5y ago
  Vaccines reduce the spread of disease, full stop.
- ok_dad 5y ago
  Vaccinations decrease the chance you’ll take valuable hospital space from someone who isn’t there for covid. That’s the real issue. Anyways, maybe you’ll eventually get the picture and get vaccinated, maybe not, but eventually you will be a pariah in the community and I certainly won’t be there to defend your idea of freedom.
Jiro 5y ago
Remember that aphorisms like that don't only apply to your side. Every time you say something like that, imagine that someone whose sense of injustice is opposite to yours is using it. Maybe they think that abortion is literal murder. Maybe it's the 1950s and they think some poor black guy has raped a white girl (because how would she ever consent?) Maybe they're a Russian living in Ukraine and they think the Ukrainian government is oppressing the Russians and the only way to stop this is by helping Russian troops take over. I want people to say "No, I do not have to bomb that abortion clinic. No, I do not have to join that lynch mob. No, I do not have to overthrow the government." If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you haven't chosen the side of the oppressor. Rather, if you're neutral in situations of injustice, it means that you have figured out that humility can be a virtue.
- x86_64Ubuntu 5y ago
  >..Rather, if you're neutral in situations of injustice, it means that you have figured out that humility can be a virtue. I'm not sure I understand how humility comes into the picture? I don't think anyone didn't join a lynch mob, yet allowed them to continue on their way to the victim and thought of themselves as humble.
- tshaddox 5y ago
  > Every time you say something like that, imagine that someone whose sense of injustice is opposite to yours is using it. This line of reasoning only makes sense if you think that moral positions have no qualities other than how strongly people hold them. If, on the other hand, you believe that two people can hold two opposing moral positions with equal strength, and one of them can be correct while the other is incorrect, this line of reasoning doesn’t make sense. Of course, this was obviously Tutu’s position. Tutu probably didn’t think “before you go and help the mouse, realize that doing so might be just as upsetting to the elephant as your neutrality would have been to the mouse.”
  - Jiro 5y ago
    >This line of reasoning only makes sense if you think that moral positions have no qualities other than how strongly people hold them. Of course there are differences in moral positions other than how strongly people hold them. But if you're going to make a rule about them, your rule can't take those differences into account, because everyone thinks their own moral position is correct. It's like having a rule "the police may coerce confessions from suspects, but only if they're guilty". This rule is impossible in practice because every officer coercing a confession thinks the suspect is guilty.

The quote continues: "If an elephant has its foot on the tail of a mouse, and you say that you are neutral, the mouse will not appreciate your neutrality." The moral obligation Tutu captured with that aphorism has affected me immensely over the years. Also: “All of our humanity is dependent upon recognizing the humanity of others.”

Markoff 5y ago

[flagged]

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
jrmg 5y ago
We know vaccine doesn't stop you from getting infected, we know vaccine doesn't stop you from spreading the virus. This is absolutist nonsense. It takes the truth and makes it imply something false. Vaccines make you less likely to become infected, and decrease viral load if you do get infected. So, even if you do become infected, the infection is milder and you are less likely to pass it on. In all these ways, (less likely to catch, milder infection, less likely to transmit) they provide protection to you and those around you.
- Markoff 5y ago
  >Vaccines make you less likely to become infected complete nonsense based on some small studies while real world data contradict this, vaccinated makes same or higher proportion of infected than it's actual vaccination rate in many countries same with viral load especially now with Omicron vaccines were sold as effective against infection and transmission, them narrative moved to effective against mild symptoms, them narrative moved to effective against serious symptoms but I understand you I would have also buyer's remorse if I fell for this, trying to make everyone make same mistake add you did doesn't change a thing though
wesleywt 5y ago
You should get vaccinated and stop thinking you know better than people who are better tha you.
kennywinker 5y ago
Sober drivers kill people too, not just drunk drivers - yet we have no problem prohibiting driving drunk. But even that analogy breaks down because it’s been 1 year of vaccine’s existing, and in most places much less than 6 months of vaccine-only rules. This is a health crisis. Nobody wants or intends this to be forever. It’s like crying injustice because of a temporary ban on drunk driving.
LarrySellers 5y ago
Vaccines reduce the spread of disease, full stop.
ok_dad 5y ago
Vaccinations decrease the chance you’ll take valuable hospital space from someone who isn’t there for covid. That’s the real issue. Anyways, maybe you’ll eventually get the picture and get vaccinated, maybe not, but eventually you will be a pariah in the community and I certainly won’t be there to defend your idea of freedom.

Jiro 5y ago

Remember that aphorisms like that don't only apply to your side. Every time you say something like that, imagine that someone whose sense of injustice is opposite to yours is using it. Maybe they think that abortion is literal murder. Maybe it's the 1950s and they think some poor black guy has raped a white girl (because how would she ever consent?) Maybe they're a Russian living in Ukraine and they think the Ukrainian government is oppressing the Russians and the only way to stop this is by helping Russian troops take over. I want people to say "No, I do not have to bomb that abortion clinic. No, I do not have to join that lynch mob. No, I do not have to overthrow the government." If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you haven't chosen the side of the oppressor. Rather, if you're neutral in situations of injustice, it means that you have figured out that humility can be a virtue.

x86_64Ubuntu 5y ago
>..Rather, if you're neutral in situations of injustice, it means that you have figured out that humility can be a virtue. I'm not sure I understand how humility comes into the picture? I don't think anyone didn't join a lynch mob, yet allowed them to continue on their way to the victim and thought of themselves as humble.
tshaddox 5y ago
> Every time you say something like that, imagine that someone whose sense of injustice is opposite to yours is using it. This line of reasoning only makes sense if you think that moral positions have no qualities other than how strongly people hold them. If, on the other hand, you believe that two people can hold two opposing moral positions with equal strength, and one of them can be correct while the other is incorrect, this line of reasoning doesn’t make sense. Of course, this was obviously Tutu’s position. Tutu probably didn’t think “before you go and help the mouse, realize that doing so might be just as upsetting to the elephant as your neutrality would have been to the mouse.”
- Jiro 5y ago
  >This line of reasoning only makes sense if you think that moral positions have no qualities other than how strongly people hold them. Of course there are differences in moral positions other than how strongly people hold them. But if you're going to make a rule about them, your rule can't take those differences into account, because everyone thinks their own moral position is correct. It's like having a rule "the police may coerce confessions from suspects, but only if they're guilty". This rule is impossible in practice because every officer coercing a confession thinks the suspect is guilty.