7 ms·

Look to their diplomatic behavior around the South China Sea for the last couple of decades.

whimsicalism 5y ago
The US views itself as the enforcer of UNCLOS for all navigable bodies of water in the entire world, a treaty it hasn't ratified. It has tons of military bases in the SCS, a region not even close to it, compared to the furor when it becomes possible that China might build a single military base along Africa's atlantic coast. It seems like a bit of a double standard to me. I wish a good faith discussion about China was possible here, but I think that HN swings pretty jingoistic on these issues.
- scottLobster 5y ago
  What-aboutisms and calling people jingoist. Who exactly do you think you're convincing other than yourself? Point me to the last time the US used its navy to directly threaten merchant shipping.
  - throwaway_1_234 5y ago
    Didn't the US seize a bunch of Iranian oil recently? The newspapers say no military ships were involved [1], but it seems fairly straight-forward that the US is using its clout and military might to impede free trade between two independent actors (Iran/Venezuela). The same could be said of America's failed attempt to block Nordstream-2, where the US unceremoniously tried to insert itself between two third parties trying to trade (Russia/Germany). These examples are, obviously, not about using "navy to threaten shipping", but the general point stands -- US actively uses its position to punish its geopolitical opponents by disrupting their trade. China aspires to do the same. That you Westerners are fearful and angry about it is understandable, but this behavior is not unique to China. China is literally learning from you. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/14/world/middleeast/trump-iran-venezuela-fuel-tankers.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/14/world/middleeast/trump-ir... edit: "seize" not cease
  - syki 5y ago
    It’s not an example of using the navy but it’s effect - the result is what matters, not the means - is the same. https://news.yahoo.com/us-warns-against-dealing-top-iran-shipper-201837683.html https://news.yahoo.com/us-warns-against-dealing-top-iran-shi... This one involves the Navy. https://news.antiwar.com/2020/05/19/us-threatens-ships-in-persian-gulf-tells-them-to-stay-clear/ https://news.antiwar.com/2020/05/19/us-threatens-ships-in-pe...
  - whimsicalism 5y ago
    I am not making a whataboutism claim. I am merely trying to figure out what our standard for "bullying" behavior is. If the standard for "bullying" behavior happens to also apply to the US and is the impetus for why Lithuana evacuated its embassy, then I would suggest they should evacuate their US embassy as well. If there is a reason why Lithuania hasn't evacuated their US embassy, then I am just seeking to figure out what the standard is that makes China's behavior uniquely bad. I think it is pretty undeniable that jingoistic rhetoric has increased in both China and the US in recent years.
    - stale2002 5y ago
      The reason why Lithuania has not evacuated it's US embassy is obviously because china is directly targeting Lithuania right now and the US isn't. Was that really a hard question to answer?
    - krisoft 5y ago
      > If there is a reason why Lithuania hasn't evacuated their US embassy, … That is a simple one. The US is not hurting Lithuania the same way China is hurting Lithuania. This is the reason why Lithuania evacuated their Chinese embassy and not their US embassy. Your question seems to imply that Lithuania drawn a big tally of the Chinese “moral failings” in general and decided to withdraw. This is not what happened. Lithuania allowed Taiwan to open an embassy in their country. In response, the PRC recalled its ambassador in Vilnius, Shen Zhifei, and demanded that Lithuania recall its ambassador in Beijing, Diana Mickevičienė. Following this Lithuania experienced a trade distruption. Shipments to and from Lithuania didn’t clear Chinese customs and invoices went unpaid. It goes as far that assemblies containing Lithuanian parts get blocked by the Chinese. This is not rhetoric. This is not some feel-good measure to communicate displeasure with China in an abstract. This is a trade war. Now I ask: is the US doing anything like this to Lithuania right now?
  - dawkins 5y ago
    Cuba?
- nyokodo 5y ago
  > The US views itself as the enforcer of UNCLOS for all navigable bodies of water in the entire world 50 years ago Americans were mass bombing North Vietnam, spraying toxic chemicals across large swathes, and generally killing. However, now America is a friend and trading partner to Vietnam and China is a bitter rival because China has many centuries of history bullying and brutally subjugating Vietnam and compared to that the US comes off looking ok. It doesn’t diminish how terrible and regrettable the Vietnam War was but it sure puts China’s long held attitude toward foreigners in stark relief! If criticism of the US and the President were treated by the US with such vitriol and reprisals as China responds to criticisms of China and Xi then the world would be a smoldering crater.
- d3vmax 5y ago
  PRC Shill alert!
  - dang 5y ago
    Whoa - you can't break the site guidelines like this, and certainly not repeatedly (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29616354 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29616354). We ban accounts that do this, so if you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules, we'd appreciate it.
    - d3vmax 5y ago
      Hi dang, will be mindful to reply with more context, thank you for the warning. What can we do about commenters that spew misinformation or twist issues? Is there a report option?
      - whimsicalism 5y ago
        You can flag, but you might have to have posted a little bit more in order to be able to do it. I am not sure what the guidelines are for flagging tbph
      - dang 5y ago
        You can flag comments and, in egregious cases, email us at hn@ycombinator.com. That's in the guidelines. Would you mind reviewing them? https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
    - d3vmax 5y ago
      I saw that you have warned whimsicalism to not flamebait. He also changed his original comment on which I commented that he is a PRC shill.

The US views itself as the enforcer of UNCLOS for all navigable bodies of water in the entire world, a treaty it hasn't ratified. It has tons of military bases in the SCS, a region not even close to it, compared to the furor when it becomes possible that China might build a single military base along Africa's atlantic coast. It seems like a bit of a double standard to me. I wish a good faith discussion about China was possible here, but I think that HN swings pretty jingoistic on these issues.

scottLobster 5y ago
What-aboutisms and calling people jingoist. Who exactly do you think you're convincing other than yourself? Point me to the last time the US used its navy to directly threaten merchant shipping.
- throwaway_1_234 5y ago
  Didn't the US seize a bunch of Iranian oil recently? The newspapers say no military ships were involved [1], but it seems fairly straight-forward that the US is using its clout and military might to impede free trade between two independent actors (Iran/Venezuela). The same could be said of America's failed attempt to block Nordstream-2, where the US unceremoniously tried to insert itself between two third parties trying to trade (Russia/Germany). These examples are, obviously, not about using "navy to threaten shipping", but the general point stands -- US actively uses its position to punish its geopolitical opponents by disrupting their trade. China aspires to do the same. That you Westerners are fearful and angry about it is understandable, but this behavior is not unique to China. China is literally learning from you. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/14/world/middleeast/trump-iran-venezuela-fuel-tankers.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/14/world/middleeast/trump-ir... edit: "seize" not cease
- syki 5y ago
  It’s not an example of using the navy but it’s effect - the result is what matters, not the means - is the same. https://news.yahoo.com/us-warns-against-dealing-top-iran-shipper-201837683.html https://news.yahoo.com/us-warns-against-dealing-top-iran-shi... This one involves the Navy. https://news.antiwar.com/2020/05/19/us-threatens-ships-in-persian-gulf-tells-them-to-stay-clear/ https://news.antiwar.com/2020/05/19/us-threatens-ships-in-pe...
- whimsicalism 5y ago
  I am not making a whataboutism claim. I am merely trying to figure out what our standard for "bullying" behavior is. If the standard for "bullying" behavior happens to also apply to the US and is the impetus for why Lithuana evacuated its embassy, then I would suggest they should evacuate their US embassy as well. If there is a reason why Lithuania hasn't evacuated their US embassy, then I am just seeking to figure out what the standard is that makes China's behavior uniquely bad. I think it is pretty undeniable that jingoistic rhetoric has increased in both China and the US in recent years.
  - stale2002 5y ago
    The reason why Lithuania has not evacuated it's US embassy is obviously because china is directly targeting Lithuania right now and the US isn't. Was that really a hard question to answer?
  - krisoft 5y ago
    > If there is a reason why Lithuania hasn't evacuated their US embassy, … That is a simple one. The US is not hurting Lithuania the same way China is hurting Lithuania. This is the reason why Lithuania evacuated their Chinese embassy and not their US embassy. Your question seems to imply that Lithuania drawn a big tally of the Chinese “moral failings” in general and decided to withdraw. This is not what happened. Lithuania allowed Taiwan to open an embassy in their country. In response, the PRC recalled its ambassador in Vilnius, Shen Zhifei, and demanded that Lithuania recall its ambassador in Beijing, Diana Mickevičienė. Following this Lithuania experienced a trade distruption. Shipments to and from Lithuania didn’t clear Chinese customs and invoices went unpaid. It goes as far that assemblies containing Lithuanian parts get blocked by the Chinese. This is not rhetoric. This is not some feel-good measure to communicate displeasure with China in an abstract. This is a trade war. Now I ask: is the US doing anything like this to Lithuania right now?
- dawkins 5y ago
  Cuba?
nyokodo 5y ago
> The US views itself as the enforcer of UNCLOS for all navigable bodies of water in the entire world 50 years ago Americans were mass bombing North Vietnam, spraying toxic chemicals across large swathes, and generally killing. However, now America is a friend and trading partner to Vietnam and China is a bitter rival because China has many centuries of history bullying and brutally subjugating Vietnam and compared to that the US comes off looking ok. It doesn’t diminish how terrible and regrettable the Vietnam War was but it sure puts China’s long held attitude toward foreigners in stark relief! If criticism of the US and the President were treated by the US with such vitriol and reprisals as China responds to criticisms of China and Xi then the world would be a smoldering crater.
d3vmax 5y ago
PRC Shill alert!
- dang 5y ago
  Whoa - you can't break the site guidelines like this, and certainly not repeatedly (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29616354 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29616354). We ban accounts that do this, so if you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules, we'd appreciate it.
  - d3vmax 5y ago
    Hi dang, will be mindful to reply with more context, thank you for the warning. What can we do about commenters that spew misinformation or twist issues? Is there a report option?
    - whimsicalism 5y ago
      You can flag, but you might have to have posted a little bit more in order to be able to do it. I am not sure what the guidelines are for flagging tbph
    - dang 5y ago
      You can flag comments and, in egregious cases, email us at hn@ycombinator.com. That's in the guidelines. Would you mind reviewing them? https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - d3vmax 5y ago
    I saw that you have warned whimsicalism to not flamebait. He also changed his original comment on which I commented that he is a PRC shill.