5 ms·

I wish whole of EU would declare in unison support for Taiwan. Wonder if China would kick out every single EU nation embassy then?

by albeva 5y ago

lnxg33k1 5y ago
As european, I think EU is too busy looking good to have time to actually something good, so I am not sure our political and entrepreneurial tools are willing to damage their wealth over something good, on the other hand, taiwanese people don't even seem to care https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Y18-07g39g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Y18-07g39g so why do we have to be this world police?
627467 5y ago
You are aware that in the new world order in the making Europe is NOT shifting towards American geopolitical priorities, right? If anything Europe wants nothing to do with thorny issues that are bad for business (which Europe has plenty with China)
BrazzVuvuzela 5y ago
If they did that, I hope they would coordinate the timing with America first. It would be American forces, not so much the EU, that would be helping Taiwan defend against the invasion that would probably follow.
- albeva 5y ago
  While true, it is often ignored that combined EU does possess a huge, highly advanced and well trained military force. So more than that I'd hope EU can then put its squabbling aside and respong in unison to any military provocation as well.
  - BrazzVuvuzela 5y ago
    Advanced weapons and good training, but lacking in the force projection in the Pacific department, relative to America anyway.
    - GekkePrutser 5y ago
      On the other hand, we don't really have any business being there. So why would we. We're not the world police. In the EU we view the "Department of Defense" as a tool for actual defense. Not for invading the middle east for corporate benefit. We've been dragged into this several times by the US in the last decades and it's always been a huge failure and has sometimes led to worse threats (ISIS for example which was much more of a threat to us than Saddam Hussein was) A land war against China is not winnable anyway. I do think we should help Taiwan if it comes to it. But this should just come down to strategic deterrents. There's no point sending armies. By the time they get there it's too late anyway. Our main threat right now is mainly Russia. And mainly so because they view us as enemies. But having entire tank brigades like in the cold war won't do us any good. This is not how the next war will be fought.
      - BrazzVuvuzela 5y ago
        To be clear, I'm not faulting the EU for it. The EU should be concerned more with their own security, particularly if America gets tied up with China and is consequently less capable of helping to defend the EU against Russia.
  - mantas 5y ago
    How many aircraft careers does EU have? Especially after Brexit...
    - qnsi 5y ago
      4, which is more than China has.
    - angrygoat 5y ago
      Seven: France (4) Italy (2) Spain (1) Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_aircraft_carriers_in_service https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_aircraft_carriers_in_s...
      - riku_iki 5y ago
        they listed helicopter carriers there (e.g. Mistral for France).
      - BrazzVuvuzela 5y ago
        That count is a bit deceptive, France has a single aircraft carrier with fixed-wing aircraft, the Charles de Gaulle. The other three are Mistral-class amphibious assault ships with helicopters.
    - jessaustin 5y ago
      The recent conflict in Nagorno-Karabakh proved that the future is here, and no large asset is safe from drones. Even if carriers could deny airspace to cheap tiny airborne loitering munitions (they can't), they have no hope against the submarine variety.
  - punnerud 5y ago
    Europe combined have more people and spend way more on military than US. On GDP Europe is lower, but they also have more than 2x the amount of people: https://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/European-Union/United-States/Military https://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/European-U...
    - fifilura 5y ago
      And anyone who has played a couple of games of Risk knows how much that is worth...
    - martin8412 5y ago
      Spending more doesn't mean much if you don't spend it on something worthwhile. Not to mention that the European countries don't count money spent on healthcare, education, etc for veterans as part of the military budget. The US is definitely overspending for no real benefit, except lining the pockets of defense contractors(and by that, politicians pockets)
  - Iolaum 5y ago
    I 'd say that the EU armies look better in paper than they would in practice. One example is that several EU armies running out of precision bombs relatively early into the Libyan intervention [1]. [1]: https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/nato-runs-short-on-some-munitions-in-libya/2011/04/15/AF3O7ElD_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/nato-runs-short-on-some...
    - Aeolun 5y ago
      And land armies without tanks! Last I heard the Netherlands had sold off all of theirs :/
phantomathkg 5y ago
I highly doubt they would. Most of the governments worldwide are realists, most of the time they are doing lip services, not many have the gut to do what Lithuanian do.
- yeetman21 5y ago
  I think, on a cynical take, that Lithuania only is able to do it because they have nothing to lose. Their trade with China is small so even if it is cut off, then it will be almost like if nothing had happened.
VictorPath 5y ago
> I wish whole of EU would declare in unison support for Taiwan. Sure, Spain can take a break from hunting down Catalonian referendum politicians in France, or hunting down the Basque separatists that Franco didn't wipe out in Guernica, and can declare Taiwan should be an independent country. The British PM can visit soldiers in Thiepval, Holywood or other UK barracks in north Ireland and declare support of Taiwan breaking off of China. The Italian newspapers can take a break from condemning the northern League wanting to break off from Italy and form another country, and praise Taiwanese independence. Maybe after an EU council meeting denouncing the people of Crimea voting to be annexed into Russia, we can have an opening of Taiwanese embassies in preparation for Taiwan announcing a break from China.
- InvOfSmallC 5y ago
  Italian here. The separatists you’re talking about are absolutely a thing of the past and they were never serious to start with. There is no actual separatist movement, and the one still in it usually didn’t even finish middle school. I’m pretty sure they wouldn’t even make the connection.
- CogitoCogito 5y ago
  Catalonia, the Basque region, Ireland, etc are not comparable to Taiwan. Taiwan _is_ a separate country today already. There is no separatist movement. It’s all just Chinese propaganda. (Officially Taiwan has similar claims, but they clearly have stopped actually exercising them hence that fact isn’t really relevant). If you want a more accurate comparison it would would be as if Spain started claiming that Portugal is a part of its territory and pushing the world to accept that position.
- Krasnol 5y ago
  Impressively colourful whataboutism. Are we supposed to order them by which may be even close to what we see with Taiwan or doesn't it matter at all?
  - puzzlingcaptcha 5y ago
    The parent you are responding to has a very colorful comment history too, with a certain theme to it. Strangely only in political threads.
croes 5y ago
They don't need to kick out their embassies, they just need to stop exports for a short period of time. A short stop because of the pandemic had hard consequences but it could be much worse. The west ignored the human rights situation at the beginning to get cheap labor, cheap resources and to ignore environmental issues and now the west can't simply stop without killing it's econonmy.
- whodunnit 5y ago
  It’s economic addiction which, like any addiction, is painful to deal with, but it’ll only get worse if left untreated.

I wish whole of EU would declare in unison support for Taiwan. Wonder if China would kick out every single EU nation embassy then?

by albeva 5y ago

I wish whole of EU would declare in unison support for Taiwan. Wonder if China would kick out every single EU nation embassy then?

lnxg33k1 5y ago

As european, I think EU is too busy looking good to have time to actually something good, so I am not sure our political and entrepreneurial tools are willing to damage their wealth over something good, on the other hand, taiwanese people don't even seem to care https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Y18-07g39g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Y18-07g39g so why do we have to be this world police?

627467 5y ago

You are aware that in the new world order in the making Europe is NOT shifting towards American geopolitical priorities, right? If anything Europe wants nothing to do with thorny issues that are bad for business (which Europe has plenty with China)

BrazzVuvuzela 5y ago

If they did that, I hope they would coordinate the timing with America first. It would be American forces, not so much the EU, that would be helping Taiwan defend against the invasion that would probably follow.

albeva 5y ago
While true, it is often ignored that combined EU does possess a huge, highly advanced and well trained military force. So more than that I'd hope EU can then put its squabbling aside and respong in unison to any military provocation as well.
- BrazzVuvuzela 5y ago
  Advanced weapons and good training, but lacking in the force projection in the Pacific department, relative to America anyway.
  - GekkePrutser 5y ago
    On the other hand, we don't really have any business being there. So why would we. We're not the world police. In the EU we view the "Department of Defense" as a tool for actual defense. Not for invading the middle east for corporate benefit. We've been dragged into this several times by the US in the last decades and it's always been a huge failure and has sometimes led to worse threats (ISIS for example which was much more of a threat to us than Saddam Hussein was) A land war against China is not winnable anyway. I do think we should help Taiwan if it comes to it. But this should just come down to strategic deterrents. There's no point sending armies. By the time they get there it's too late anyway. Our main threat right now is mainly Russia. And mainly so because they view us as enemies. But having entire tank brigades like in the cold war won't do us any good. This is not how the next war will be fought.
    - BrazzVuvuzela 5y ago
      To be clear, I'm not faulting the EU for it. The EU should be concerned more with their own security, particularly if America gets tied up with China and is consequently less capable of helping to defend the EU against Russia.
- mantas 5y ago
  How many aircraft careers does EU have? Especially after Brexit...
  - qnsi 5y ago
    4, which is more than China has.
  - angrygoat 5y ago
    Seven: France (4) Italy (2) Spain (1) Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_aircraft_carriers_in_service https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_aircraft_carriers_in_s...
    - riku_iki 5y ago
      they listed helicopter carriers there (e.g. Mistral for France).
    - BrazzVuvuzela 5y ago
      That count is a bit deceptive, France has a single aircraft carrier with fixed-wing aircraft, the Charles de Gaulle. The other three are Mistral-class amphibious assault ships with helicopters.
  - jessaustin 5y ago
    The recent conflict in Nagorno-Karabakh proved that the future is here, and no large asset is safe from drones. Even if carriers could deny airspace to cheap tiny airborne loitering munitions (they can't), they have no hope against the submarine variety.
- punnerud 5y ago
  Europe combined have more people and spend way more on military than US. On GDP Europe is lower, but they also have more than 2x the amount of people: https://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/European-Union/United-States/Military https://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/European-U...
  - fifilura 5y ago
    And anyone who has played a couple of games of Risk knows how much that is worth...
  - martin8412 5y ago
    Spending more doesn't mean much if you don't spend it on something worthwhile. Not to mention that the European countries don't count money spent on healthcare, education, etc for veterans as part of the military budget. The US is definitely overspending for no real benefit, except lining the pockets of defense contractors(and by that, politicians pockets)
- Iolaum 5y ago
  I 'd say that the EU armies look better in paper than they would in practice. One example is that several EU armies running out of precision bombs relatively early into the Libyan intervention [1]. [1]: https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/nato-runs-short-on-some-munitions-in-libya/2011/04/15/AF3O7ElD_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/nato-runs-short-on-some...
  - Aeolun 5y ago
    And land armies without tanks! Last I heard the Netherlands had sold off all of theirs :/

phantomathkg 5y ago

I highly doubt they would. Most of the governments worldwide are realists, most of the time they are doing lip services, not many have the gut to do what Lithuanian do.

yeetman21 5y ago
I think, on a cynical take, that Lithuania only is able to do it because they have nothing to lose. Their trade with China is small so even if it is cut off, then it will be almost like if nothing had happened.

VictorPath 5y ago

> I wish whole of EU would declare in unison support for Taiwan. Sure, Spain can take a break from hunting down Catalonian referendum politicians in France, or hunting down the Basque separatists that Franco didn't wipe out in Guernica, and can declare Taiwan should be an independent country. The British PM can visit soldiers in Thiepval, Holywood or other UK barracks in north Ireland and declare support of Taiwan breaking off of China. The Italian newspapers can take a break from condemning the northern League wanting to break off from Italy and form another country, and praise Taiwanese independence. Maybe after an EU council meeting denouncing the people of Crimea voting to be annexed into Russia, we can have an opening of Taiwanese embassies in preparation for Taiwan announcing a break from China.

InvOfSmallC 5y ago
Italian here. The separatists you’re talking about are absolutely a thing of the past and they were never serious to start with. There is no actual separatist movement, and the one still in it usually didn’t even finish middle school. I’m pretty sure they wouldn’t even make the connection.
CogitoCogito 5y ago
Catalonia, the Basque region, Ireland, etc are not comparable to Taiwan. Taiwan _is_ a separate country today already. There is no separatist movement. It’s all just Chinese propaganda. (Officially Taiwan has similar claims, but they clearly have stopped actually exercising them hence that fact isn’t really relevant). If you want a more accurate comparison it would would be as if Spain started claiming that Portugal is a part of its territory and pushing the world to accept that position.
Krasnol 5y ago
Impressively colourful whataboutism. Are we supposed to order them by which may be even close to what we see with Taiwan or doesn't it matter at all?
- puzzlingcaptcha 5y ago
  The parent you are responding to has a very colorful comment history too, with a certain theme to it. Strangely only in political threads.

croes 5y ago

They don't need to kick out their embassies, they just need to stop exports for a short period of time. A short stop because of the pandemic had hard consequences but it could be much worse. The west ignored the human rights situation at the beginning to get cheap labor, cheap resources and to ignore environmental issues and now the west can't simply stop without killing it's econonmy.

whodunnit 5y ago
It’s economic addiction which, like any addiction, is painful to deal with, but it’ll only get worse if left untreated.