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>Are we the baddies? Yes, we are, and people will literally bury their heads in the sand every time our government cries about Russia, Iran, or China (despite

>Are we the baddies? Yes, we are, and people will literally bury their heads in the sand every time our government cries about Russia, Iran, or China (despite the fact that none of those are invading any other countries). Not saying those countries never do bad things, but we are way worse, and even worse, we try to justify our actions with words like "democracy" and "freedom" which actually hurts those causes. There is so much innocent blood on America's hands from just the last two decades alone, its really quite something unfathomable everytime I hear one of those CIA people cry about what Russia or China is doing.

ozfive 5y ago
YES WE ARE! IT'S BEYOND ENOUGH! But pacifists are not served well throughout history. So defense is critical now.
standardly 5y ago
The burying of one's head in sand is in fact figurative, not literal.
kongolongo 5y ago
There isn't a single war without innocent civilian casualties caused by every side. At least this is under the guise of accidental, some nations do it on purpose.
- pksebben 5y ago
  I don't think that's better. I want failure modes to occur early and as loud as possible when it comes to this stuff; otherwise it's easy to get away with bombing the shit out of civilians for, oh, I dunno, seventy some aught years. But hey, we had to put a stop to that darned ole communism, didn't we? Couldn't have that. wouldn't be profitable or godly.
tinbad 5y ago
You must be kidding or willfully ignoring the atrocities committed by Russia just in the last decade or two (occupying Crimea, Afghanistan, wars in Chechnya, Georgia and likely Kazakhstan sometime soon) or China (Uyghurs). All in the sole interest of continuing their highly oppressive, dictatorial regimes.
- American12143 5y ago
  The body counts are not even comparable. In Iraq, ALONE, the U.S. is estimated to have killed 1M+ civilians, between the sanctions it pushed before the 2003 war and the war itself. Here is Madeline Albright saying killing 500k+ kids in Iraq via sanctions was "worth the price" (despite the fact that those sanctions achieved nothing in terms of real political goals): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RM0uvgHKZe8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RM0uvgHKZe8 Edit: but you can flag my comments if that makes you feel better
- syki 5y ago
  Well, the U.S. did torture priests in Latin America because of their social justice views. We’ve overthrown governments to support banana companies and had no problems supporting Saddam gassing Kurds since he was fighting the Iranians. We supported Papa Doc and for a while Noriega. Our government has experimented on it’s own people and has been involved in the drug trade. We’ve tortured innocent people with no one being held accountable. We spy on a grand scale on our own citizens. We’ve supported dictators and brutality when the people in power thought it beneficial to do so. I don’t think we can claim any sort of moral superiority over others. I’m not saying we are the worst but certainly we are no where close to the best. We are not a light on a hill as some of our presidents have proclaimed.
  - stevenwoo 5y ago
    Hey, get it right, technically we paid and trained most of the right wing death squads who raped nuns and killed nuns and priests in Latin America, mostly at the School of the Americas.
    - ogma 5y ago
      And if we're counting the School of the Americas then most of the cartels are our doing too.
purple_turtle 5y ago
Russia invaded Ukraine ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Donbas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Donbas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Ukrainian_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Ukrainian_War ), captured Crime and there is ongoing conflict in Eastern Ukraine. Russia invaided also Georgia ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Georgian_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Georgian_War ), with direct trigger caused by South Ossetian separatists but Russia was clearly prepared for war. China has ongoing invasion of Bhutan by simply building roads and military bases in that country ( https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/05/07/china-bhutan-border-villages-security-forces/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/05/07/china-bhutan-border-vil... ) China-India relation thankfully not reached invasion level but see say https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020%E2%80%932021_China%E2%80%93India_skirmishes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020%E2%80%932021_China%E2%80%... Believing that USA is perfect is delusional but your comment has multiple blatant lies.
- DSingularity 5y ago
  Don’t forget the Chinese oppression of the uighur. The scale is terrifying.
- str12 5y ago
  Your comment is worse. India commits multiple incursions across the border - this news was spilled by India's former Army chief. https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/tamil-nadu/india-has-transgressed-into-lac-more-times-than-china-says-v-k-singh/article33774108.ece https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/tamil-nadu/india-has-...
- American12143 5y ago
  Okay...and? I said that neither China nor Russia are good actors (when I said invasions, I meant active ones, but I get your point), however, the U.S. is worse. -The Russian invasion of both Ukraine and Georgia, summed together, had a civilian deathtoll of 4000+ -If we throw in the first/second Chechen war as well, we get a TOTAL civilian deathtoll of ~70k+ The U.S. killed 500k+ CHILDREN (not even accounting for adult civilians) with its Iraq sanctions (before the invasion), this is just ONE country of the MANY countries the U.S. has been a participant in destabilizing in the last two decades (and we're not even talking about Korea/Vietnam/supplying Saddam with chemical weapons/Gulf War/South American interventions) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RM0uvgHKZe8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RM0uvgHKZe8 If you want to look at it from a per capita standpoint, the U.S. has killed far, far more civilians than Russia has (not that this justifies even the death of a SINGLE civilian), but one must objectively come to the realization that the U.S. is the biggest force for civilian mass murder in the world. You can dress it up as "it was for democracy and freedom", but I don't think anyone buys that anymore. They don't even sell it to us as that anymore, now its for "national security", which is the same excuse Russia and China make as well.

ozfive 5y ago

YES WE ARE! IT'S BEYOND ENOUGH! But pacifists are not served well throughout history. So defense is critical now.

standardly 5y ago

The burying of one's head in sand is in fact figurative, not literal.

kongolongo 5y ago

There isn't a single war without innocent civilian casualties caused by every side. At least this is under the guise of accidental, some nations do it on purpose.

pksebben 5y ago
I don't think that's better. I want failure modes to occur early and as loud as possible when it comes to this stuff; otherwise it's easy to get away with bombing the shit out of civilians for, oh, I dunno, seventy some aught years. But hey, we had to put a stop to that darned ole communism, didn't we? Couldn't have that. wouldn't be profitable or godly.

tinbad 5y ago

You must be kidding or willfully ignoring the atrocities committed by Russia just in the last decade or two (occupying Crimea, Afghanistan, wars in Chechnya, Georgia and likely Kazakhstan sometime soon) or China (Uyghurs). All in the sole interest of continuing their highly oppressive, dictatorial regimes.

American12143 5y ago
The body counts are not even comparable. In Iraq, ALONE, the U.S. is estimated to have killed 1M+ civilians, between the sanctions it pushed before the 2003 war and the war itself. Here is Madeline Albright saying killing 500k+ kids in Iraq via sanctions was "worth the price" (despite the fact that those sanctions achieved nothing in terms of real political goals): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RM0uvgHKZe8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RM0uvgHKZe8 Edit: but you can flag my comments if that makes you feel better
syki 5y ago
Well, the U.S. did torture priests in Latin America because of their social justice views. We’ve overthrown governments to support banana companies and had no problems supporting Saddam gassing Kurds since he was fighting the Iranians. We supported Papa Doc and for a while Noriega. Our government has experimented on it’s own people and has been involved in the drug trade. We’ve tortured innocent people with no one being held accountable. We spy on a grand scale on our own citizens. We’ve supported dictators and brutality when the people in power thought it beneficial to do so. I don’t think we can claim any sort of moral superiority over others. I’m not saying we are the worst but certainly we are no where close to the best. We are not a light on a hill as some of our presidents have proclaimed.
- stevenwoo 5y ago
  Hey, get it right, technically we paid and trained most of the right wing death squads who raped nuns and killed nuns and priests in Latin America, mostly at the School of the Americas.
  - ogma 5y ago
    And if we're counting the School of the Americas then most of the cartels are our doing too.

purple_turtle 5y ago

Russia invaded Ukraine ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Donbas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Donbas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Ukrainian_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Ukrainian_War ), captured Crime and there is ongoing conflict in Eastern Ukraine. Russia invaided also Georgia ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Georgian_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Georgian_War ), with direct trigger caused by South Ossetian separatists but Russia was clearly prepared for war. China has ongoing invasion of Bhutan by simply building roads and military bases in that country ( https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/05/07/china-bhutan-border-villages-security-forces/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/05/07/china-bhutan-border-vil... ) China-India relation thankfully not reached invasion level but see say https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020%E2%80%932021_China%E2%80%93India_skirmishes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020%E2%80%932021_China%E2%80%... Believing that USA is perfect is delusional but your comment has multiple blatant lies.

DSingularity 5y ago
Don’t forget the Chinese oppression of the uighur. The scale is terrifying.
str12 5y ago
Your comment is worse. India commits multiple incursions across the border - this news was spilled by India's former Army chief. https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/tamil-nadu/india-has-transgressed-into-lac-more-times-than-china-says-v-k-singh/article33774108.ece https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/tamil-nadu/india-has-...
American12143 5y ago
Okay...and? I said that neither China nor Russia are good actors (when I said invasions, I meant active ones, but I get your point), however, the U.S. is worse. -The Russian invasion of both Ukraine and Georgia, summed together, had a civilian deathtoll of 4000+ -If we throw in the first/second Chechen war as well, we get a TOTAL civilian deathtoll of ~70k+ The U.S. killed 500k+ CHILDREN (not even accounting for adult civilians) with its Iraq sanctions (before the invasion), this is just ONE country of the MANY countries the U.S. has been a participant in destabilizing in the last two decades (and we're not even talking about Korea/Vietnam/supplying Saddam with chemical weapons/Gulf War/South American interventions) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RM0uvgHKZe8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RM0uvgHKZe8 If you want to look at it from a per capita standpoint, the U.S. has killed far, far more civilians than Russia has (not that this justifies even the death of a SINGLE civilian), but one must objectively come to the realization that the U.S. is the biggest force for civilian mass murder in the world. You can dress it up as "it was for democracy and freedom", but I don't think anyone buys that anymore. They don't even sell it to us as that anymore, now its for "national security", which is the same excuse Russia and China make as well.