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>The idea in education is that everyone is intellectually equal. Therefore the racial achievement gap in mathematics is due to racism. The solution is to change

by bsanr 5y ago

>The idea in education is that everyone is intellectually equal. Therefore the racial achievement gap in mathematics is due to racism. The solution is to change things. If we're going to go there: I went from being a straight-A math student in Pre-Calculus to a C (verging on D) student in my AP Calculus course in high school. In college, I retook Calculus and aced it, receiving one of the highest final scores in the class. The first course was taught by a black woman. The second was taught by a white man. The last was taught by a black man. I am a black man. People in this conversation are frequently quick to dismiss the value of anti-racist (and, for that matter, anti-sexist) policy and execution in STEM pedagogy. They lean on and extrapolate erroneously from the notion of many great mathematical thinkers' probable hereditary advantages to a general, in-born hierarchy of fitness for STEM thinking. Coincidentally, this shields them from tough conversations regarding their own fitness to teach, and especially to teach children whose backgrounds they cannot or will not find sympathy and empathy for. I will admit that the solution is not so simple as my anecdote might suggest, but the implied path shares character with the correct one, in recognizing the farcical nature of assuming that the status quo - especially in this country - is a product of actual potential playing out as it must necessarily so, and not of history overshadowing even the best of intentions (though they are usually less than that).

talentedcoin 5y ago
What specifically about the courses being taught by black people do you think helped you do better?
- bsanr 5y ago
  It was not the fact that they were black. It was the fact that, as a black student, I was not subject to the same warped expectations that I found common while taking higher-level courses under some of my white teachers. Not every white teacher was like this; however, I did notice, particularly in my AP courses, that many were less supportive and understanding of black students who hit periods of difficulty, and more disciplinarian in their regard. I'm unconvinced that American pedagogy in general has shaken off the inclination to view students of color as un-growing children to be trained and tamed, rather than growing thinkers to be taught and empowered.
syki 5y ago
Definitely agree. There’s no reason for me to believe that I’m good at teaching. My students’ failings could be mostly a reflection of my own failing in teaching. I don’t dismiss the value of anti-racist policy and attempts to rid myself of negative biases that affect my students. My compliant is when I’m told, and I have been told this by an educator, that the act of requiring knowledge of algebra is itself racist. That’s when I feel we’ve gone too far. I don’t necessarily think algebra should be required but the reasoning for getting rid of that requirement shouldn’t be because black students are not passing it at a high enough rate. My belief is that far too many people are going to college. The degree therefore is being watered down. If we lived in a country where everyone had guaranteed access to food, shelter, and medical care then the emphasis on college wouldn’t be so pronounced and colleges could then concentrate on what’s needed. I don’t believe your comment should have been downvoted. Thank you for sharing your experience and thoughts.
- int_19h 5y ago
  The problem is that our societies have made college a status symbol - everybody is supposed to strive for a degree even if what they're planning to do doesn't require it. This is particularly pronounced for white collar jobs, even though many of them are really more akin to tradecraft, and should be properly taught in trade school. (I would argue that the majority of what we call "software engineering" is actually of this nature.)
- bsanr 5y ago
  I disagree that "too many" people are going to college. That's a canard which defends the artificial exclusivity of education. The vast majority of people are capable of learning algebra, and geometry, and calculus, and in a timely manner, when empowered by conscientious and effective instruction. It is also true that many students - particularly black and Latino students - are place in the contradictory situation of urgently needing a credential that they were not trained correctly to earn. This has nothing to do with their capability, and everything to do with the dysfunctional system that their intellectual growth is beholden to. So while I appreciate the sympathetic elements of your reply, I have to point out that the root of your argument is a baseless suspicion of the cognitive capabilities of students of color. Yes, requiring knowledge that has been systematically denied, effectively on the basis of race, in order to obtain a credential that is necessary to earn a dignified living, is a form of racism. And we will need to "change things" to fix that.
jeegsy 5y ago
Is it possible that you aced calculus later on because you were in effect taking it a second time?
- bsanr 5y ago
  This contributed to my later success, but it generally would not - and, to my recollection, doesn't - explain the massive jump in grade. The main difference was a more conscientious teacher and an environment that facilitated better study habits. The second time, unlike the first, I was not forced to fight my teacher's low expectations and lack of support in addition to learning the material.
commandlinefan 5y ago
So... you're trying to say that black people should have black teachers and white people should have white teachers?
- bsanr 5y ago
  >I will admit that the solution is not so simple as my anecdote might suggest So, no. Please read carefully and avoid kneejerk responses.
YeGoblynQueenne 5y ago
I'm just trying to find a way to say how much it sucks that your comment is being downvoted. Fuck it. It sucks so much that your comment is downvoted. Fuck that. This place is fucked up sometimes, where people downvote comments that might at a very long stretch be misconstrued as displaying some remote racial insensitivity if you squint really, reaaaaly hard, and then downvote a black guy who says what he's seen first-hand. It's like watching the BBC giving equal screen time to climate scientists and climate denials in service to some objectivity, long ago lost.
kaitai 5y ago
And jumping past your comments about anti-racist and anti-sexist policy and execution in STEM pedagogy, your anecdotes point out an actually effective intervention -- supporting the development of a teaching workforce that reflects the communities of students in the classroom! There is a significant difference in approach when someone sees their students as "theirs", a resource to be developed and nurtured, instead of "someone else's", an unruly crowd to be disciplined, as you mention in a later comment. Is the teacher teaching, or babysitting/policing? Too much of US education is the second, for children of any color. Must you have the same skin color to teach rather than babysit/police? No. In the American context, though, it takes effort rather than inertia to accurately see and develop the potential of your black students -- because inertia gives white teachers in particular a relentlessly negative media stream about "thugs" instead of "future Nobel winner". Our segregated society gives white teachers an incorrect set of Bayesian priors on the meaning of acting out or difficulties in class. They don't have black friends whose kids are going through a rough patch but are still the same sweet kid they were at age six. I mean, I just talked with a high school teacher in a rural Midwestern district who said 'at least she didn't have to worry about kids doing cocaine in the closet at school like at an inner city school', and as a graduate of such an inner city school, my response was "honey we couldn't afford cocaine, that's a rich kid drug". This is a lovely lady, dedicated teacher, and that's her prior on "inner city kids" as of Dec 3, 2021.

by bsanr 5y ago

talentedcoin 5y ago

What specifically about the courses being taught by black people do you think helped you do better?

bsanr 5y ago
It was not the fact that they were black. It was the fact that, as a black student, I was not subject to the same warped expectations that I found common while taking higher-level courses under some of my white teachers. Not every white teacher was like this; however, I did notice, particularly in my AP courses, that many were less supportive and understanding of black students who hit periods of difficulty, and more disciplinarian in their regard. I'm unconvinced that American pedagogy in general has shaken off the inclination to view students of color as un-growing children to be trained and tamed, rather than growing thinkers to be taught and empowered.

syki 5y ago

Definitely agree. There’s no reason for me to believe that I’m good at teaching. My students’ failings could be mostly a reflection of my own failing in teaching. I don’t dismiss the value of anti-racist policy and attempts to rid myself of negative biases that affect my students. My compliant is when I’m told, and I have been told this by an educator, that the act of requiring knowledge of algebra is itself racist. That’s when I feel we’ve gone too far. I don’t necessarily think algebra should be required but the reasoning for getting rid of that requirement shouldn’t be because black students are not passing it at a high enough rate. My belief is that far too many people are going to college. The degree therefore is being watered down. If we lived in a country where everyone had guaranteed access to food, shelter, and medical care then the emphasis on college wouldn’t be so pronounced and colleges could then concentrate on what’s needed. I don’t believe your comment should have been downvoted. Thank you for sharing your experience and thoughts.

int_19h 5y ago
The problem is that our societies have made college a status symbol - everybody is supposed to strive for a degree even if what they're planning to do doesn't require it. This is particularly pronounced for white collar jobs, even though many of them are really more akin to tradecraft, and should be properly taught in trade school. (I would argue that the majority of what we call "software engineering" is actually of this nature.)
bsanr 5y ago
I disagree that "too many" people are going to college. That's a canard which defends the artificial exclusivity of education. The vast majority of people are capable of learning algebra, and geometry, and calculus, and in a timely manner, when empowered by conscientious and effective instruction. It is also true that many students - particularly black and Latino students - are place in the contradictory situation of urgently needing a credential that they were not trained correctly to earn. This has nothing to do with their capability, and everything to do with the dysfunctional system that their intellectual growth is beholden to. So while I appreciate the sympathetic elements of your reply, I have to point out that the root of your argument is a baseless suspicion of the cognitive capabilities of students of color. Yes, requiring knowledge that has been systematically denied, effectively on the basis of race, in order to obtain a credential that is necessary to earn a dignified living, is a form of racism. And we will need to "change things" to fix that.

jeegsy 5y ago

Is it possible that you aced calculus later on because you were in effect taking it a second time?

bsanr 5y ago
This contributed to my later success, but it generally would not - and, to my recollection, doesn't - explain the massive jump in grade. The main difference was a more conscientious teacher and an environment that facilitated better study habits. The second time, unlike the first, I was not forced to fight my teacher's low expectations and lack of support in addition to learning the material.

commandlinefan 5y ago

So... you're trying to say that black people should have black teachers and white people should have white teachers?

bsanr 5y ago
>I will admit that the solution is not so simple as my anecdote might suggest So, no. Please read carefully and avoid kneejerk responses.

YeGoblynQueenne 5y ago

I'm just trying to find a way to say how much it sucks that your comment is being downvoted. Fuck it. It sucks so much that your comment is downvoted. Fuck that. This place is fucked up sometimes, where people downvote comments that might at a very long stretch be misconstrued as displaying some remote racial insensitivity if you squint really, reaaaaly hard, and then downvote a black guy who says what he's seen first-hand. It's like watching the BBC giving equal screen time to climate scientists and climate denials in service to some objectivity, long ago lost.

kaitai 5y ago

And jumping past your comments about anti-racist and anti-sexist policy and execution in STEM pedagogy, your anecdotes point out an actually effective intervention -- supporting the development of a teaching workforce that reflects the communities of students in the classroom! There is a significant difference in approach when someone sees their students as "theirs", a resource to be developed and nurtured, instead of "someone else's", an unruly crowd to be disciplined, as you mention in a later comment. Is the teacher teaching, or babysitting/policing? Too much of US education is the second, for children of any color. Must you have the same skin color to teach rather than babysit/police? No. In the American context, though, it takes effort rather than inertia to accurately see and develop the potential of your black students -- because inertia gives white teachers in particular a relentlessly negative media stream about "thugs" instead of "future Nobel winner". Our segregated society gives white teachers an incorrect set of Bayesian priors on the meaning of acting out or difficulties in class. They don't have black friends whose kids are going through a rough patch but are still the same sweet kid they were at age six. I mean, I just talked with a high school teacher in a rural Midwestern district who said 'at least she didn't have to worry about kids doing cocaine in the closet at school like at an inner city school', and as a graduate of such an inner city school, my response was "honey we couldn't afford cocaine, that's a rich kid drug". This is a lovely lady, dedicated teacher, and that's her prior on "inner city kids" as of Dec 3, 2021.