9 ms·

Sure, here's a thread with sources: https://twitter.com/leonydusjohnson/status/1267466345844740098 https://twitter.com/leonydusjohnson/status/12674663458447400.

by beaner 5y ago

Sure, here's a thread with sources: https://twitter.com/leonydusjohnson/status/1267466345844740098 https://twitter.com/leonydusjohnson/status/12674663458447400... > Time and time again we see someone get called on a welfare check only to be shot to death You really need to pierce your bubble and ask what else happens that might not be shown to you. The news isn't real. Not really, anyway. Every single outlet has a bias and "lying by omission" to shape a narrative is common. For example, did you know George Floyd is hardly the first person to have died under the knee of the police officer? At least 2 times before it, it was a minority officer killing a white man. You can watch it with your own eyes: Here's Tony Timpa being killed this way: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_c-E_i8Q5G0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_c-E_i8Q5G0 Here's Joseph Hutcheson being killed this way: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnsE6_lVkrE&list=LL&index=50&t=1s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnsE6_lVkrE&list=LL&index=50... Another thing that's been so sad to watch recently is peoples' disbelief in how different the reality of the Kyle Rittenhouse situation is from how it is presented to them on the news, when they simply watch the actual trial. E.g.: https://twitter.com/sarahbeth345/status/1458593872557133825 https://twitter.com/sarahbeth345/status/1458593872557133825

dljsjr 5y ago
That tweet you referenced is heavily cherry-picked: it talks about the results of violent-crime calls, and it doesn’t discuss location. There are two issues with this: 1. Civilians are also murdered by police who are responding to non-violent offenses. A good example here would be the classic “shot during a routine traffic stop” situation. That won’t show up in the stat from your sources. Your source tries to say that by “controlling for violent crime, the racial disparity goes away” but that doesn’t make any sense. 2. Huge disparity across different LEO organizations. For example, according to this Harvard study, in Chicago the racial bias in the statistics is much stronger than in other areas: https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/hsph-in-the-news/blacks-whites-police-deaths-disparity/ https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/hsph-in-the-news/blacks-wh... That same study also concludes that once you account for and amortize things, you are still 3x more likely to die in an encounter with LEO if you are non white.
- beaner 5y ago
  The NYTimes, which is a left-leaning institution to begin with, released an infamous paper on race-based police killings itself in 2015 by a black researcher and author, and found that "this data does not prove that biased police officers are more likely to shoot blacks in any given encounter." [0] People were angry that taking a look into the data did not say what they wanted to here. And as another poster said [1], even if there were bias, that does not equate to likely, in absolute terms. The idea that you're essentially sending a black person to death, or rolling the dice on their life, by calling the cops on them for nonviolent crime, is ridiculous. [0] https://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/18/upshot/police-killings-of-blacks-what-the-data-says.html https://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/18/upshot/police-killings-of... [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29200539 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29200539
  - tashi 5y ago
    Is Sendhil Mullainathan the "black researcher and author" you're talking about? I'm trying to get a sense of how much fact-checking you've put into this.
    - beaner 5y ago
      Hm, no, good correction. I might be thinking about a separate article from the same time period that I've lost track of.
      - ryan93 5y ago
        https://eml.berkeley.edu/~webfac/card/e250a_f16/fryer-use-of-force.pdf https://eml.berkeley.edu/~webfac/card/e250a_f16/fryer-use-of...
  - dljsjr 5y ago
    You’ve still completely ignored the peer-reviewed Harvard study. Also I don’t know what left or right social politics has to do with any of this.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
burkaman 5y ago
> For every 10,000 black people arrested for violent crime, 3 are killed This is a weird way to frame the issue. Are black people arrested for violent crime more often? I don't know, but if they are, that changes the conclusion. This seems like an obvious thing I'd want to find out if I were posting that Twitter thread. > I am showing that when you control for violent crime rate, the disparity vanishes. No, arrest rate and crime rate are not the same. That's the whole point of the discussion about bias in policing. If you ask a more straightforward question, like "how often are people killed when they interact with police?", the statistics look different. Here's a study that says: > On average, there were large racial/ethnic inequities in the rates at which White and Black people were killed during police contact. Across all MSAs, Black people were 3.23 times more likely to be killed compared to White people (95% CI: 2.95, 3.54, p<0.001). - https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0229686 https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal...
- beaner 5y ago
  Ok sure, but in turn your comment ignores/doesn't contain any data on the statistics of crimes committed by race or what behaviors that lead to escalation appear more among different races. The NYTimes however did research it and found that "this data does not prove that biased police officers are more likely to shoot blacks in any given encounter": https://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/18/upshot/police-killings-of-blacks-what-the-data-says.html https://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/18/upshot/police-killings-of...
  - burkaman 5y ago
    I'll post the full quote for anyone that doesn't have NYT access: > The data is unequivocal. Police killings are a race problem: African-Americans are being killed disproportionately and by a wide margin. And police bias may be responsible. But this data does not prove that biased police officers are more likely to shoot blacks in any given encounter. Absolutely agreed: using the FBI data in that NYT article, there's no way to tell why Black people are killed more frequently. All it tells you is that deaths are disproportionate. Using other studies with further data, like the one I posted, gives us a clearer picture. > Ok sure, but in turn your comment ignores/doesn't contain any data on the statistics of crimes committed by race or what behaviors that lead to escalation appear more among different races. Correct, I am taking it as a given that skin color has no effect on a person's likelihood to commit crime or somehow provoke an officer to murder them during an arrest.
devtul 5y ago
> so sad to watch recently is peoples' disbelief in how different the reality of the Kyle Rittenhouse situation is from how it is presented to them on the news I feel pretty positive about this actually. This will be the tipping point for many to finally question all the info they get from the corporate media. For a long time I saw garbage reporting on subjects that I had the slightest familiarity but I still blindly believed their reporting on any other subject, until something clicked in my mind and now I can't unsee it. I'm sure many are experiencing this click due to the trial.
- beaner 5y ago
  > This will be the tipping point for many to finally question all the info they get from the corporate media. Only if they actually get to see the reality presented to them somewhere. I fear that most people still won't. If they've been in the bubble for years, there will be nothing indicating to them that they should venture outside of it this one time.
- dnissley 5y ago
  Gell-Mann amnesia
dang 5y ago
> You really need to pierce your bubble and ask what else happens that might not be shown to you. Please omit such swipes from your comments here. They're a form of personal attack, which is against the site guidelines and is really bad for communication, especially on difficult topics. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html Edit: your comments have degenerated into outright flamewar below. We ban accounts that do that. Please review the guidelines and please don't do any more of that.

by beaner 5y ago

dljsjr 5y ago

That tweet you referenced is heavily cherry-picked: it talks about the results of violent-crime calls, and it doesn’t discuss location. There are two issues with this: 1. Civilians are also murdered by police who are responding to non-violent offenses. A good example here would be the classic “shot during a routine traffic stop” situation. That won’t show up in the stat from your sources. Your source tries to say that by “controlling for violent crime, the racial disparity goes away” but that doesn’t make any sense. 2. Huge disparity across different LEO organizations. For example, according to this Harvard study, in Chicago the racial bias in the statistics is much stronger than in other areas: https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/hsph-in-the-news/blacks-whites-police-deaths-disparity/ https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/hsph-in-the-news/blacks-wh... That same study also concludes that once you account for and amortize things, you are still 3x more likely to die in an encounter with LEO if you are non white.

beaner 5y ago
The NYTimes, which is a left-leaning institution to begin with, released an infamous paper on race-based police killings itself in 2015 by a black researcher and author, and found that "this data does not prove that biased police officers are more likely to shoot blacks in any given encounter." [0] People were angry that taking a look into the data did not say what they wanted to here. And as another poster said [1], even if there were bias, that does not equate to likely, in absolute terms. The idea that you're essentially sending a black person to death, or rolling the dice on their life, by calling the cops on them for nonviolent crime, is ridiculous. [0] https://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/18/upshot/police-killings-of-blacks-what-the-data-says.html https://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/18/upshot/police-killings-of... [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29200539 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29200539
- tashi 5y ago
  Is Sendhil Mullainathan the "black researcher and author" you're talking about? I'm trying to get a sense of how much fact-checking you've put into this.
  - beaner 5y ago
    Hm, no, good correction. I might be thinking about a separate article from the same time period that I've lost track of.
    - ryan93 5y ago
      https://eml.berkeley.edu/~webfac/card/e250a_f16/fryer-use-of-force.pdf https://eml.berkeley.edu/~webfac/card/e250a_f16/fryer-use-of...
- dljsjr 5y ago
  You’ve still completely ignored the peer-reviewed Harvard study. Also I don’t know what left or right social politics has to do with any of this.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

burkaman 5y ago

> For every 10,000 black people arrested for violent crime, 3 are killed This is a weird way to frame the issue. Are black people arrested for violent crime more often? I don't know, but if they are, that changes the conclusion. This seems like an obvious thing I'd want to find out if I were posting that Twitter thread. > I am showing that when you control for violent crime rate, the disparity vanishes. No, arrest rate and crime rate are not the same. That's the whole point of the discussion about bias in policing. If you ask a more straightforward question, like "how often are people killed when they interact with police?", the statistics look different. Here's a study that says: > On average, there were large racial/ethnic inequities in the rates at which White and Black people were killed during police contact. Across all MSAs, Black people were 3.23 times more likely to be killed compared to White people (95% CI: 2.95, 3.54, p<0.001). - https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0229686 https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal...

beaner 5y ago
Ok sure, but in turn your comment ignores/doesn't contain any data on the statistics of crimes committed by race or what behaviors that lead to escalation appear more among different races. The NYTimes however did research it and found that "this data does not prove that biased police officers are more likely to shoot blacks in any given encounter": https://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/18/upshot/police-killings-of-blacks-what-the-data-says.html https://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/18/upshot/police-killings-of...
- burkaman 5y ago
  I'll post the full quote for anyone that doesn't have NYT access: > The data is unequivocal. Police killings are a race problem: African-Americans are being killed disproportionately and by a wide margin. And police bias may be responsible. But this data does not prove that biased police officers are more likely to shoot blacks in any given encounter. Absolutely agreed: using the FBI data in that NYT article, there's no way to tell why Black people are killed more frequently. All it tells you is that deaths are disproportionate. Using other studies with further data, like the one I posted, gives us a clearer picture. > Ok sure, but in turn your comment ignores/doesn't contain any data on the statistics of crimes committed by race or what behaviors that lead to escalation appear more among different races. Correct, I am taking it as a given that skin color has no effect on a person's likelihood to commit crime or somehow provoke an officer to murder them during an arrest.

devtul 5y ago

> so sad to watch recently is peoples' disbelief in how different the reality of the Kyle Rittenhouse situation is from how it is presented to them on the news I feel pretty positive about this actually. This will be the tipping point for many to finally question all the info they get from the corporate media. For a long time I saw garbage reporting on subjects that I had the slightest familiarity but I still blindly believed their reporting on any other subject, until something clicked in my mind and now I can't unsee it. I'm sure many are experiencing this click due to the trial.

beaner 5y ago
> This will be the tipping point for many to finally question all the info they get from the corporate media. Only if they actually get to see the reality presented to them somewhere. I fear that most people still won't. If they've been in the bubble for years, there will be nothing indicating to them that they should venture outside of it this one time.
dnissley 5y ago
Gell-Mann amnesia

dang 5y ago

> You really need to pierce your bubble and ask what else happens that might not be shown to you. Please omit such swipes from your comments here. They're a form of personal attack, which is against the site guidelines and is really bad for communication, especially on difficult topics. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html Edit: your comments have degenerated into outright flamewar below. We ban accounts that do that. Please review the guidelines and please don't do any more of that.