5 ms·

I though most of the point of vaxing children and other low-risk groups is to stop the spread, not for their own individual safety. Reducing the chance they'll

I though most of the point of vaxing children and other low-risk groups is to stop the spread, not for their own individual safety. Reducing the chance they'll infect grandma. And reducing the circulating pool of infections to prevent more virulent strains from developing. Have I got this wrong?

swader999 5y ago
I think Delta is still above r0 1 in vaccinated. Delta plus is worse. So there will be spread amongst vaccinated. Not as much as unvaccinated but with vaccinated conditioned to think they are safe I don't see it solving much in the medium to longer term. A high population of vaccinated is mathematically more likely to produce more virulent strains with a non sterile vaccine in a fast mutating virus.
- jayknight 5y ago
  > A high population of vaccinated is mathematically more likely to produce more virulent strains with a non sterile vaccine in a fast mutating virus. Not so. Lots of cases produce worse variants, not vaccines. https://theconversation.com/massive-numbers-of-new-covid-19-infections-not-vaccines-are-the-main-driver-of-new-coronavirus-variants-166882 https://theconversation.com/massive-numbers-of-new-covid-19-...
  - nradov 5y ago
    That's possible but unproven. The current thinking is that new variants are mostly likely to evolve in immunocompromised patients who experience persistent infections. Vaccines are less effective in such patients because the immune system doesn't respond as it should. https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/covid-variants-may-arise-in-people-with-compromised-immune-systems/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/covid-variants-ma...
  - MisterMower 5y ago
    But if vaccines permit asymptomatic spread, meaning the virus enters a host and begins replicating, without the host showing symptoms, by definition you’re increasing the number of opportunities for new mutations to occur. I’m not sure how that article refutes the grandparent comment’s point.
    - jayknight 5y ago
      Asymptomatic spread is possible with or without the vaccine, but significantly less with it.
      - swader999 5y ago
        Its much more possible with a vaccine that reduces the severity of the disease and permits people to still be out and about, perhaps even unaware they might be infectious. If it puts you on your ass or worse, you aren't out spreading it.
csee 5y ago
Yes you have it wrong. That goes against medical ethics. You can't give someone a treatment that is net detrimental to them in order to benefit others.
- jayknight 5y ago
  >net detrimental We're talking about covid vaccines here.
colordrops 5y ago
I thought the vaccines don't stop or even really slow spread that much, especially with Delta variants. At least that's what authorities are saying. My understanding is that the point of vaccines as now explained is to prevent hospitalizations.
- jayknight 5y ago
  They do. If you have a "breakthrough infection", you are just as likely to spread it to someone else as someone who is infected without the vaccine. But you're much less likely to get infected in the first place if you've had the vaccine, so overall much less likely to pass it to others. So the more people who get vaccinated, the slower the spread. See https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/ https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/
  - rsynnott 5y ago
    > If you have a "breakthrough infection", you are just as likely to spread it to someone else as someone who is infected without the vaccine Somewhat less likely; on average if you're vaccinated you won't be infectious for as long a time if you do get it.

swader999 5y ago

I think Delta is still above r0 1 in vaccinated. Delta plus is worse. So there will be spread amongst vaccinated. Not as much as unvaccinated but with vaccinated conditioned to think they are safe I don't see it solving much in the medium to longer term. A high population of vaccinated is mathematically more likely to produce more virulent strains with a non sterile vaccine in a fast mutating virus.

jayknight 5y ago
> A high population of vaccinated is mathematically more likely to produce more virulent strains with a non sterile vaccine in a fast mutating virus. Not so. Lots of cases produce worse variants, not vaccines. https://theconversation.com/massive-numbers-of-new-covid-19-infections-not-vaccines-are-the-main-driver-of-new-coronavirus-variants-166882 https://theconversation.com/massive-numbers-of-new-covid-19-...
- nradov 5y ago
  That's possible but unproven. The current thinking is that new variants are mostly likely to evolve in immunocompromised patients who experience persistent infections. Vaccines are less effective in such patients because the immune system doesn't respond as it should. https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/covid-variants-may-arise-in-people-with-compromised-immune-systems/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/covid-variants-ma...
- MisterMower 5y ago
  But if vaccines permit asymptomatic spread, meaning the virus enters a host and begins replicating, without the host showing symptoms, by definition you’re increasing the number of opportunities for new mutations to occur. I’m not sure how that article refutes the grandparent comment’s point.
  - jayknight 5y ago
    Asymptomatic spread is possible with or without the vaccine, but significantly less with it.
    - swader999 5y ago
      Its much more possible with a vaccine that reduces the severity of the disease and permits people to still be out and about, perhaps even unaware they might be infectious. If it puts you on your ass or worse, you aren't out spreading it.

csee 5y ago

Yes you have it wrong. That goes against medical ethics. You can't give someone a treatment that is net detrimental to them in order to benefit others.

jayknight 5y ago
>net detrimental We're talking about covid vaccines here.

colordrops 5y ago

I thought the vaccines don't stop or even really slow spread that much, especially with Delta variants. At least that's what authorities are saying. My understanding is that the point of vaccines as now explained is to prevent hospitalizations.

jayknight 5y ago
They do. If you have a "breakthrough infection", you are just as likely to spread it to someone else as someone who is infected without the vaccine. But you're much less likely to get infected in the first place if you've had the vaccine, so overall much less likely to pass it to others. So the more people who get vaccinated, the slower the spread. See https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/ https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/
- rsynnott 5y ago
  > If you have a "breakthrough infection", you are just as likely to spread it to someone else as someone who is infected without the vaccine Somewhat less likely; on average if you're vaccinated you won't be infectious for as long a time if you do get it.