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When you have the population density and city pollution levels they have in big Indian cities, I don't blame them for trying to discourage the use of petrol. Ev

When you have the population density and city pollution levels they have in big Indian cities, I don't blame them for trying to discourage the use of petrol. Even if you don't believe in climate change, there's real haze over many of their cities which has well documented effects on respiratory health.

rg111 5y ago
To be able to be discouraged from doing something, one needs to be able to do that in the first place. This is like the French queen saying, "if they cannot afford bread, why don't they eat cake?"
unmole 5y ago
The price elasticity of fuels is famously low. So, increasing the price of fuel by 10% will not lead to a 10% reduction in consumption. The government knew this and doesn't claim that these are meant to reduce fuel consumption. Besides, it's not like much of India has decent public transport. The high taxes are not meant to reduce consumption but shore up revenue. The Indian government slashed corporate tax rates last year. And revenues from GST were lower than expected because of the shutdowns imposed to contain the pandemic. Here are two very well written articles by Vivek Kaul which explain the high prices in great detail: https://vivekkaul.com/2021/06/17/petrol-and-diesel-prices-are-high-due-to-lower-corporate-taxes-not-because-of-oil-bonds/ https://vivekkaul.com/2021/06/17/petrol-and-diesel-prices-ar... https://vivekkaul.com/2021/07/14/whats-the-real-story-behind-high-petrol-and-diesel-prices/ https://vivekkaul.com/2021/07/14/whats-the-real-story-behind...
- thewhitetulip 5y ago
  Public transport costs are increasing as well. I used to pay 10rs for a shared auto per 5km, now it's gone to 15/20. Public transport aka buses are still cheap but number of busses and their frequency is low
  - unmole 5y ago
    Increase in fuel prices increases the cost of all transport. This causes inflation all across the board
    - thewhitetulip 5y ago
      Off topic, but are you the guy whose Reddit username is also unmole?
manquer 5y ago
It has nothing to do with climate change though. Fuel is very price inelastic , i.e. higger price doesn't reduce consumption that much. higher fuel prices adversely affect the poor a lot more . This tax is largely because despite all the buzz on growth and economic policy ( demonitization etc) the current government is completely incompetent (last wasn't that much better either) to actually increase tax collection. Very few indians pay tax - only salaried employees really , that's a small percentage of the population. Also taxing fuel that high is going to also force people to use less clean fuel like wood etc that will negatively impact pollution
- space_rock 5y ago
  Yes higher prices reduce consumption. There is no perfectly inelastic market. There are cheap Chinese electric vehicles available
  - debdut 5y ago
    Oil prices are not about cars only imo. Everything increases in price because everything is transported via oil :(
  - vadfa 5y ago
    Are they cheap and sturdy enough as to allow a very poor person to sell their petrol car and buy one of those?
    - dhruval 5y ago
      A “very poor person” in an Indian context doesn’t own a car. A lot of people in India use scooters and motorcycles. The transition to electric scooters is happening. There are a few local companies in the space. They tend to be a lot easier to manufacture than electric cars.
      - chakkepolja 5y ago
        The number of electric scooters is super negligible.
kybernetyk 5y ago
Yeah, poor people shouldn’t have transportation. t.hackernews
- shmde 5y ago
  Yes, its funny people think its about tackling climate change and encouraging people to use petrol/diesel alternatives. When in reality there is none present and people still have to commute everyday to work in petrol/diesel vehicles.
  - chakkepolja 5y ago
    Before asking middle class people to use public transport instead of motorcycle, you have to actually provide good public transport.
  - RalfWausE 5y ago
    Now... my granddad was a miner after the second world war, and he commuted roughly 20 km (one way) every day by bicycle and even rode from the Ruhr region in Germany to Austria on it(no fancy mountainbike or roadbike, just an old "Vaterland")...
    - yunohn 5y ago
      Great anecdote. How do you travel to places? I’m guessing the answer is either a fossil-fuel vehicle, or an expensive electric vehicle.
      - RalfWausE 5y ago
        Mostly by (expensive) bike or - if i have stuff or more bodies than my own to transport - with a shared family car.
  - thewhitetulip 5y ago
    I really really wanted to buy a 2 wheeler EV 3yrs ago. But the only available option was Okinawa bike that went barely 50km in one charge. I now have a 3yr old petrol 2 wheeler that I need to get rid of until I have some sensible options in EVs. Ola, simple energy won't make a delivery in a fewmonths and they're over booked as hell. And current vehicles have too short range (less than 80km actual) Currently the only affordable 4wheeler ev in India is Nexon EV at 150k INR. MG has an ev at 250k INR and Hundai too at 250K INR Prices need to come down. Charging stations need to be set up + batteries should last for a long time
anontrot 5y ago
Uh that's a creative way of looking at it. When you increase fuel prices: 1. Daily expense increases for commuters 2. An already weak public transport becomes expensive for commuters 3. Cost of almost everything increases (our logistics are road heavy) 4. Income of individuals are not increasing, so above 3 are going to hurt a lot more

rg111 5y ago

To be able to be discouraged from doing something, one needs to be able to do that in the first place. This is like the French queen saying, "if they cannot afford bread, why don't they eat cake?"

unmole 5y ago

The price elasticity of fuels is famously low. So, increasing the price of fuel by 10% will not lead to a 10% reduction in consumption. The government knew this and doesn't claim that these are meant to reduce fuel consumption. Besides, it's not like much of India has decent public transport. The high taxes are not meant to reduce consumption but shore up revenue. The Indian government slashed corporate tax rates last year. And revenues from GST were lower than expected because of the shutdowns imposed to contain the pandemic. Here are two very well written articles by Vivek Kaul which explain the high prices in great detail: https://vivekkaul.com/2021/06/17/petrol-and-diesel-prices-are-high-due-to-lower-corporate-taxes-not-because-of-oil-bonds/ https://vivekkaul.com/2021/06/17/petrol-and-diesel-prices-ar... https://vivekkaul.com/2021/07/14/whats-the-real-story-behind-high-petrol-and-diesel-prices/ https://vivekkaul.com/2021/07/14/whats-the-real-story-behind...

thewhitetulip 5y ago
Public transport costs are increasing as well. I used to pay 10rs for a shared auto per 5km, now it's gone to 15/20. Public transport aka buses are still cheap but number of busses and their frequency is low
- unmole 5y ago
  Increase in fuel prices increases the cost of all transport. This causes inflation all across the board
  - thewhitetulip 5y ago
    Off topic, but are you the guy whose Reddit username is also unmole?

manquer 5y ago

It has nothing to do with climate change though. Fuel is very price inelastic , i.e. higger price doesn't reduce consumption that much. higher fuel prices adversely affect the poor a lot more . This tax is largely because despite all the buzz on growth and economic policy ( demonitization etc) the current government is completely incompetent (last wasn't that much better either) to actually increase tax collection. Very few indians pay tax - only salaried employees really , that's a small percentage of the population. Also taxing fuel that high is going to also force people to use less clean fuel like wood etc that will negatively impact pollution

space_rock 5y ago
Yes higher prices reduce consumption. There is no perfectly inelastic market. There are cheap Chinese electric vehicles available
- debdut 5y ago
  Oil prices are not about cars only imo. Everything increases in price because everything is transported via oil :(
- vadfa 5y ago
  Are they cheap and sturdy enough as to allow a very poor person to sell their petrol car and buy one of those?
  - dhruval 5y ago
    A “very poor person” in an Indian context doesn’t own a car. A lot of people in India use scooters and motorcycles. The transition to electric scooters is happening. There are a few local companies in the space. They tend to be a lot easier to manufacture than electric cars.
    - chakkepolja 5y ago
      The number of electric scooters is super negligible.

kybernetyk 5y ago

Yeah, poor people shouldn’t have transportation. t.hackernews

shmde 5y ago
Yes, its funny people think its about tackling climate change and encouraging people to use petrol/diesel alternatives. When in reality there is none present and people still have to commute everyday to work in petrol/diesel vehicles.
- chakkepolja 5y ago
  Before asking middle class people to use public transport instead of motorcycle, you have to actually provide good public transport.
- RalfWausE 5y ago
  Now... my granddad was a miner after the second world war, and he commuted roughly 20 km (one way) every day by bicycle and even rode from the Ruhr region in Germany to Austria on it(no fancy mountainbike or roadbike, just an old "Vaterland")...
  - yunohn 5y ago
    Great anecdote. How do you travel to places? I’m guessing the answer is either a fossil-fuel vehicle, or an expensive electric vehicle.
    - RalfWausE 5y ago
      Mostly by (expensive) bike or - if i have stuff or more bodies than my own to transport - with a shared family car.
- thewhitetulip 5y ago
  I really really wanted to buy a 2 wheeler EV 3yrs ago. But the only available option was Okinawa bike that went barely 50km in one charge. I now have a 3yr old petrol 2 wheeler that I need to get rid of until I have some sensible options in EVs. Ola, simple energy won't make a delivery in a fewmonths and they're over booked as hell. And current vehicles have too short range (less than 80km actual) Currently the only affordable 4wheeler ev in India is Nexon EV at 150k INR. MG has an ev at 250k INR and Hundai too at 250K INR Prices need to come down. Charging stations need to be set up + batteries should last for a long time

anontrot 5y ago

Uh that's a creative way of looking at it. When you increase fuel prices: 1. Daily expense increases for commuters 2. An already weak public transport becomes expensive for commuters 3. Cost of almost everything increases (our logistics are road heavy) 4. Income of individuals are not increasing, so above 3 are going to hurt a lot more