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> Many of the people I speak to learned late in life that their inner voices were not the norm. For years, Worrall thought that other people also had attics in

> Many of the people I speak to learned late in life that their inner voices were not the norm. For years, Worrall thought that other people also had attics in their brains. I went through exactly the same situation around 10 years ago, but it was about mental imaging. Do you know people can actually visualize and see things when they close there eyes? You probably do, but it took me 25 years to figure out that for most people closing their eyes is not like closing a black curtain. If that is a surprise to you that people can create and see mental images, you probably have aphantasia as well: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aphantasia https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aphantasia Since then I'm convinced that not two brains experience the world the same way. Inner voice and mental imaging are probably two of the many things we assume to be the norm.

helaoban 5y ago
I don't even have to close them, I can reproduce pictures of objects, people, scenery etc in my mind while my eyes are open and actively observing other things. As I type this comment I've got an image of a girl I saw yesterday fixed in my mind, as if looking at a picture of her. I also assumed this was the norm.
- vasco 5y ago
  Same, I think this is normal. Having to close my eyes to visualize is like having to read out loud to parse the text. I assumed nobody needed to close their eyes and that they did this in movies so "you know" they are thinking.
- jraph 5y ago
  I can't even picture my close friends very well, never mind some stranger I saw yesterday. I'll recognize people visually but their voice, their habits and their facial expressions help a lot if available, especially people new to me. I have a quite good memory and will easily recall events but the image is not very precise. I might not remember how you were dressed just 10 minutes ago; hard to build precise pictures with such a visual memory. Relatedly, if you tell me a story, I'll probably not have a precise picture of it in my mind. I noticed some people do have pictures very quickly and may take advantage of it when speaking to have some fun. I still picture things in my mind. And I don't need to close my eyes. If you tell me about some event I'll probably locate it in my (not very precise) representation of the month / the year if you said when it happened / will happen. I will have some visual representation of what you are telling me or what I am reading, but do not ask me what colors are things or how people are dressed. If you wonder how I manage to picture things without being able to tell the color they have, well, I can't figure it out neither.
- Fricken 5y ago
  I went through a phase that lasted several months, in which I practiced daily drawing portraits and caricatures. Towards the end I debeloped a photographic memory for faces. I could go out for an evening, and later I could see all the faces I interacted with that evening crystal clear, and draw their likeness referencing only my mind's eye. When I stopped practicing portraiture the magical ability went away.
- thechao 5y ago
  Right!? I just naturally assumed that everyone could picture & model 3d shapes in their visual space (like AR), until I was in college. I used to design machines & parts "in front of me" and then build them. I think it's one if the reasons I find CAD so difficult to use. When I draw 3D shapes, I just "visualize" the shape on the surface and trace it.
deleted 5y ago
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floatingatoll 5y ago
I can barely do this, at a naturally-occurring rate of maybe one image a month or less. But I can pick up music instantly.
- telesilla 5y ago
  Really interesting in this thread about how so many see images or hear voices. I always have strong threads of music, always available at any moment. I bet all musicians have this. I used to wish when I was a child that I could jack my brain to a stereo system for instant playback and bypass the effort of writing things down.
  - floatingatoll 5y ago
    This reminded me of a spiral/helix of fifths music theory poster I had twenty years ago. I can't find it now, but in my research, this came up: Music Through Computation, Carl McTague, 2003 International Mathematica Symposium https://www.mctague.org/carl/music/computer/talks/music-talk-2003/Music.ppt.pdf https://www.mctague.org/carl/music/computer/talks/music-talk... And it does indeed have a nice picture for "Helix of Fifths" that is a dry black and white sketch of what was on that poster.
    - telesilla 5y ago
      Ouch my poor brain went into shock reading that! I'd done all I could to forget schenkerian analysis and now it's all flooding back. Aside from that, nice intro to helical harmony.
      - floatingatoll 5y ago
        I'm sorry / cheers :)
kzrdude 5y ago
Aphantasia: Is there a simple test or procedure we can use to make it easier to decide to what degree we have this or not? It just seems like a topic where expectations can differ a lot. Since it's hard to clearly explain what visualizing feels like and doesn't. Some people might even be very normal and yet disappointed and think they are missing something. I don't think my mind's eye is particularly strong for example, don't have very vivid imagination. But I also don't know where the frame of reference should be!
- ManuelKiessling 5y ago
  I’m not going to say it’s a useful test, but how does https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29088032 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29088032 work for you?
  - kzrdude 5y ago
    Cool question. I definitely visualize the various rooms in my apt., Indoors perspective, when answering the question, doing so without prompting. It feels effortless and the visualizations are rather basic, without details, but they are spatial with perspective and I see the shape of the room and the window.
- distances 5y ago
  A simple quick test I've heard: imagine a ball with wings in front of you. Now, what was the colour of the ball, and what kind of wings did it have?
- meowface 5y ago
  There are some spatial intelligence tests that essentially require mentally rotating and flipping 3D objects in your mind's eye. That could maybe be one way. Can't speak to the quality of this test, but here's one that might apply: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/tests/iq/visual-spatial-intelligence-test https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/tests/iq/visual-spatial-i...
  - ars 5y ago
dylan604 5y ago
Way back in high school, I took several different tests that would have questions that would show a drawing of a folded piece of paper with a hole in it that would then ask what the pattern of dots on the unfolded page would look like. The ASVAB was one of them IIRC. At the time, I was shocked at the number of people that could not visualize this. Going through life, I then met so many people that would say they could not picture what was being described to the point I thought I just sucked at descriptions. While there may be some truth to that, I learned that aphantasia existed and it wasn't that someone was just not trying very hard.

helaoban 5y ago

I don't even have to close them, I can reproduce pictures of objects, people, scenery etc in my mind while my eyes are open and actively observing other things. As I type this comment I've got an image of a girl I saw yesterday fixed in my mind, as if looking at a picture of her. I also assumed this was the norm.

vasco 5y ago
Same, I think this is normal. Having to close my eyes to visualize is like having to read out loud to parse the text. I assumed nobody needed to close their eyes and that they did this in movies so "you know" they are thinking.
jraph 5y ago
I can't even picture my close friends very well, never mind some stranger I saw yesterday. I'll recognize people visually but their voice, their habits and their facial expressions help a lot if available, especially people new to me. I have a quite good memory and will easily recall events but the image is not very precise. I might not remember how you were dressed just 10 minutes ago; hard to build precise pictures with such a visual memory. Relatedly, if you tell me a story, I'll probably not have a precise picture of it in my mind. I noticed some people do have pictures very quickly and may take advantage of it when speaking to have some fun. I still picture things in my mind. And I don't need to close my eyes. If you tell me about some event I'll probably locate it in my (not very precise) representation of the month / the year if you said when it happened / will happen. I will have some visual representation of what you are telling me or what I am reading, but do not ask me what colors are things or how people are dressed. If you wonder how I manage to picture things without being able to tell the color they have, well, I can't figure it out neither.
Fricken 5y ago
I went through a phase that lasted several months, in which I practiced daily drawing portraits and caricatures. Towards the end I debeloped a photographic memory for faces. I could go out for an evening, and later I could see all the faces I interacted with that evening crystal clear, and draw their likeness referencing only my mind's eye. When I stopped practicing portraiture the magical ability went away.
thechao 5y ago
Right!? I just naturally assumed that everyone could picture & model 3d shapes in their visual space (like AR), until I was in college. I used to design machines & parts "in front of me" and then build them. I think it's one if the reasons I find CAD so difficult to use. When I draw 3D shapes, I just "visualize" the shape on the surface and trace it.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

floatingatoll 5y ago

I can barely do this, at a naturally-occurring rate of maybe one image a month or less. But I can pick up music instantly.

telesilla 5y ago
Really interesting in this thread about how so many see images or hear voices. I always have strong threads of music, always available at any moment. I bet all musicians have this. I used to wish when I was a child that I could jack my brain to a stereo system for instant playback and bypass the effort of writing things down.
- floatingatoll 5y ago
  This reminded me of a spiral/helix of fifths music theory poster I had twenty years ago. I can't find it now, but in my research, this came up: Music Through Computation, Carl McTague, 2003 International Mathematica Symposium https://www.mctague.org/carl/music/computer/talks/music-talk-2003/Music.ppt.pdf https://www.mctague.org/carl/music/computer/talks/music-talk... And it does indeed have a nice picture for "Helix of Fifths" that is a dry black and white sketch of what was on that poster.
  - telesilla 5y ago
    Ouch my poor brain went into shock reading that! I'd done all I could to forget schenkerian analysis and now it's all flooding back. Aside from that, nice intro to helical harmony.
    - floatingatoll 5y ago
      I'm sorry / cheers :)

kzrdude 5y ago

Aphantasia: Is there a simple test or procedure we can use to make it easier to decide to what degree we have this or not? It just seems like a topic where expectations can differ a lot. Since it's hard to clearly explain what visualizing feels like and doesn't. Some people might even be very normal and yet disappointed and think they are missing something. I don't think my mind's eye is particularly strong for example, don't have very vivid imagination. But I also don't know where the frame of reference should be!

ManuelKiessling 5y ago
I’m not going to say it’s a useful test, but how does https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29088032 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29088032 work for you?
- kzrdude 5y ago
  Cool question. I definitely visualize the various rooms in my apt., Indoors perspective, when answering the question, doing so without prompting. It feels effortless and the visualizations are rather basic, without details, but they are spatial with perspective and I see the shape of the room and the window.
distances 5y ago
A simple quick test I've heard: imagine a ball with wings in front of you. Now, what was the colour of the ball, and what kind of wings did it have?
meowface 5y ago
There are some spatial intelligence tests that essentially require mentally rotating and flipping 3D objects in your mind's eye. That could maybe be one way. Can't speak to the quality of this test, but here's one that might apply: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/tests/iq/visual-spatial-intelligence-test https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/tests/iq/visual-spatial-i...
- ars 5y ago

dylan604 5y ago

Way back in high school, I took several different tests that would have questions that would show a drawing of a folded piece of paper with a hole in it that would then ask what the pattern of dots on the unfolded page would look like. The ASVAB was one of them IIRC. At the time, I was shocked at the number of people that could not visualize this. Going through life, I then met so many people that would say they could not picture what was being described to the point I thought I just sucked at descriptions. While there may be some truth to that, I learned that aphantasia existed and it wasn't that someone was just not trying very hard.