8 ms·

Yes, part-time PhD's are pretty common in Europe. They also commonly take 3-4 years instead of 6...

tombert 5y ago
Which I find weird; are European/British PhDs generally considered less valuable than American? I didn’t think they were but there’s a lot I don’t know about this.
- tooltower 5y ago
  They make a sharper distinction of PhD being a post-Masters degree. In USA, I started the PhD program without a Masters, others started with me who had a Masters. We all took roughly the same amount of time to complete the PhD
- skissane 5y ago
  It is the same with undergraduate study. In countries such as the UK or Australia, the majority of Bachelor's degrees take only 3 years, versus a standard 4 year minimum for the US. I get the impression that a lot of US-based hiring managers don't know about this, but even if they do, nobody really seems to care much anyway. Unless it is your very first job after university, what you did as an undergraduate rarely has much significance.
  - ratww 5y ago
    Anecdotal, but I never saw a hiring manager complaining about degrees from elsewhere. Even in cases where documentation was asked (a FAANG... and Immigration too) a diploma equivalence is enough.
    - barrkel 5y ago
      Hiring managers, agree. Sourcing recruiters, not so sure. For the conveyor belt directly from college into FAANG internship and onwards, I expect you'll have an easier time at a big name.
- analog31 5y ago
  They may start out already more specialized as undergrads, or the programs are just managed better.
- throaway1990 5y ago
  European PhDs have better structure and rigid filters to weed out the unworthy dweebs. And the students take far less courses and generally work harder. US PhD system is slow and often leads to counter-intuitive, interesting or just weird results, which may or mayn't pan out in the long run. US PhD system has to be longer because i) US undergraduate system is absolute trash (like worse than 3rd world 12th grader at their worst), specially in STEM, so the extra 2-3 years are essential. ii) US students don't work that hard iii) Quite a few STEM grad students are foreign students, sometimes from different undergard backgrounds than PhD topic, so they benefit from 1-2 years of background training and acclimitising to foreign land.
  - jwilber 5y ago
    Sorry you got rejected from all the US programs you applied for? Lol
  - tombert 5y ago
    I’m reasonably certain that American PhD students work very hard. Do you have any evidence for the claim that they don’t?
    - bg4 5y ago
      There is no evidence, only bitterness.
- sipior 5y ago
  Generally speaking, American PhD programs expect that you'll be spending at least a year (and generally two) on graduate-level courses before engaging in full-time research. European-style undergraduate degrees are much more focussed, with far fewer "gen-ed" requirements, and you're expected to pick up any extra background material en passant, alongside your thesis work. It's a philosophical difference that doesn't mean a great deal practically. Often, European undergraduate programs are five years in length, although that's been changing as many European institutions now seem to be moving towards four-year programs. I'm not really sure what's driving that shift, but I think it's done partly in an effort to standardise what it means to have a "bachelor's degree" in terms of what employers can expect between Europe and North America, &cet.
  - bitwize 5y ago
    The difference comes from the fact that smart Europeans graduate secondary school with the equivalent of an American university grad's education. U.S. universities must therefore offer more coursework in order to bring their postgrads up to snuff with what's expected of a fresh university grad in the rest of the developed world.
    - sipior 5y ago
      Having lived in Europe for almost twenty years, with a spouse teaching in a European secondary school, and with the utmost respect to my European colleagues, please allow me to assure you that this is not even remotely the case.
      - bitwize 5y ago
        Having grown up in the USA, gone through the "second high school" USA university system, and heard reports from personal acquaintances and sites like this one on what levels of math German and Russian students graduate with, I'm still gonna press X to doubt the truth of your assurance, as earnest and well-meaning as it may be.
        5y ago
- thatguymike 5y ago
  One major difference between UK and US undegraduate courses is that when you study undergraduate at a UK university, you _only_ do courses in your chosen course of study. No faffing about for a year or two picking a major, no time spent filling language requirements or taking interesting-sounding courses to scratch an itch. As a result, UK graduating undergraduates tend to have spent more time in their chosen field of study than US undergraduates have. It has plusses and minuses: I (UK grad) would have loved to have followed my diverse interests more; but on the flipside I do know more about my subject than my US equivalents. I have no proof but it's reasonable to think that would transfer to shorter PHD programs.
  - Zababa 5y ago
    It's the same in France as in the UK. I'd say 90% of my time in college was spent on things directly related to maths, computer science or software engineering. Sports was mandatory for the first 2 years and half too.
  - arvindamirtaa 5y ago
    This is actually one of the most honest takes on the UK/Europe vs US undergrad formats.
  - wheels 5y ago
    Germany's basically the same. I've lived here 20 years. I went to a liberal arts college in the US. Shortening the time to getting a PhD is the only argument I could make for the European system vs. a liberal arts system. German even has a word for people who are knowledgeable in their field and nothing else: "fachidiot" (literally field-idiot). Even aside from being a well-rounded individual, the number of times it's helped in my career that I had to take university-level general education classes is huge. Even with my liberal arts background, and having worked in pretty mathy areas of industry, it's rare that I, say, have to use much from my last two years of CS education. (What they did prepare me for is getting to the point that I can read research papers in areas I've since worked in.) To be clear: virtually everywhere in the US a CS curriculum takes 4 years. There's no deciding in year three and graduating on time. You could potentially switch to CS from engineering, math or physics and get close. In Germany at least, in contrast to the US, there's no coursework in a PhD, which I believe is the main thing that makes a PhD shorter than, say, a US PhD directly after a bachelors degree (which is typical in the sciences).
- Scarblac 5y ago
  In Europe the Bachelor is already fully focused on a subject, and you have to get a Master degree before you can enter PhD programs. In the US the Bachelor is much wider in scope and you can get the Master during the PhD program.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- barry-cotter 5y ago
  Only in the US/Canada. The stereotype is that they may be fine researchers but they don't have the breadth that comes of spending two years doing graduate level classes.
evanb 5y ago
… if you already have a master’s degree, which takes 2 years. In the US many 5-6 year PhD programs do not require—and in fact include—a master’s degree.
- bombadilo 5y ago
  A masters is typically one year full time, two years part time.
  - trenchgun 5y ago
    Incorrect. In Europe a bachelors is either 3 or 4 years, and a masters is either 1 or 2 years. Full time. Source: https://ec.europa.eu/education/resources-and-tools/european-credit-transfer-and-accumulation-system-ects_en https://ec.europa.eu/education/resources-and-tools/european-...
    - trenchgun 5y ago
      Of course, it is possible to do a 90 ECTS masters (1 year full time) for two years part time. And it's possible to do a 180 ECTS masters (2 year full time) for four years part time.
      - Flashtoo 5y ago
        A full year is 60 ECTS. 180 would be three years full time.
- Zababa 5y ago
  Oh, that explains a lot. In France it's usually 3 years (180 ECTS) for a license (which is usually equivalent to a bachelor), 2 years (120 ECTS) for a master's degree and then usually 3 years for a PhD. At least in software, most people have a master's degree.
- jstx1 5y ago
  This isn't the case in England. Most master's degrees are 1 year and a master's isn't a requirement for many PhD programmes. So it's possible to do your entire higher education, including a PhD, in 6 years (3 years of undergrad + 3 years full-time PhD).

Which I find weird; are European/British PhDs generally considered less valuable than American? I didn’t think they were but there’s a lot I don’t know about this.

tooltower 5y ago
They make a sharper distinction of PhD being a post-Masters degree. In USA, I started the PhD program without a Masters, others started with me who had a Masters. We all took roughly the same amount of time to complete the PhD
skissane 5y ago
It is the same with undergraduate study. In countries such as the UK or Australia, the majority of Bachelor's degrees take only 3 years, versus a standard 4 year minimum for the US. I get the impression that a lot of US-based hiring managers don't know about this, but even if they do, nobody really seems to care much anyway. Unless it is your very first job after university, what you did as an undergraduate rarely has much significance.
- ratww 5y ago
  Anecdotal, but I never saw a hiring manager complaining about degrees from elsewhere. Even in cases where documentation was asked (a FAANG... and Immigration too) a diploma equivalence is enough.
  - barrkel 5y ago
    Hiring managers, agree. Sourcing recruiters, not so sure. For the conveyor belt directly from college into FAANG internship and onwards, I expect you'll have an easier time at a big name.
analog31 5y ago
They may start out already more specialized as undergrads, or the programs are just managed better.
throaway1990 5y ago
European PhDs have better structure and rigid filters to weed out the unworthy dweebs. And the students take far less courses and generally work harder. US PhD system is slow and often leads to counter-intuitive, interesting or just weird results, which may or mayn't pan out in the long run. US PhD system has to be longer because i) US undergraduate system is absolute trash (like worse than 3rd world 12th grader at their worst), specially in STEM, so the extra 2-3 years are essential. ii) US students don't work that hard iii) Quite a few STEM grad students are foreign students, sometimes from different undergard backgrounds than PhD topic, so they benefit from 1-2 years of background training and acclimitising to foreign land.
- jwilber 5y ago
  Sorry you got rejected from all the US programs you applied for? Lol
- tombert 5y ago
  I’m reasonably certain that American PhD students work very hard. Do you have any evidence for the claim that they don’t?
  - bg4 5y ago
    There is no evidence, only bitterness.
sipior 5y ago
Generally speaking, American PhD programs expect that you'll be spending at least a year (and generally two) on graduate-level courses before engaging in full-time research. European-style undergraduate degrees are much more focussed, with far fewer "gen-ed" requirements, and you're expected to pick up any extra background material en passant, alongside your thesis work. It's a philosophical difference that doesn't mean a great deal practically. Often, European undergraduate programs are five years in length, although that's been changing as many European institutions now seem to be moving towards four-year programs. I'm not really sure what's driving that shift, but I think it's done partly in an effort to standardise what it means to have a "bachelor's degree" in terms of what employers can expect between Europe and North America, &cet.
- bitwize 5y ago
  The difference comes from the fact that smart Europeans graduate secondary school with the equivalent of an American university grad's education. U.S. universities must therefore offer more coursework in order to bring their postgrads up to snuff with what's expected of a fresh university grad in the rest of the developed world.
  - sipior 5y ago
    Having lived in Europe for almost twenty years, with a spouse teaching in a European secondary school, and with the utmost respect to my European colleagues, please allow me to assure you that this is not even remotely the case.
    - bitwize 5y ago
      Having grown up in the USA, gone through the "second high school" USA university system, and heard reports from personal acquaintances and sites like this one on what levels of math German and Russian students graduate with, I'm still gonna press X to doubt the truth of your assurance, as earnest and well-meaning as it may be.
      - 5y ago
thatguymike 5y ago
One major difference between UK and US undegraduate courses is that when you study undergraduate at a UK university, you _only_ do courses in your chosen course of study. No faffing about for a year or two picking a major, no time spent filling language requirements or taking interesting-sounding courses to scratch an itch. As a result, UK graduating undergraduates tend to have spent more time in their chosen field of study than US undergraduates have. It has plusses and minuses: I (UK grad) would have loved to have followed my diverse interests more; but on the flipside I do know more about my subject than my US equivalents. I have no proof but it's reasonable to think that would transfer to shorter PHD programs.
- Zababa 5y ago
  It's the same in France as in the UK. I'd say 90% of my time in college was spent on things directly related to maths, computer science or software engineering. Sports was mandatory for the first 2 years and half too.
- arvindamirtaa 5y ago
  This is actually one of the most honest takes on the UK/Europe vs US undergrad formats.
- wheels 5y ago
  Germany's basically the same. I've lived here 20 years. I went to a liberal arts college in the US. Shortening the time to getting a PhD is the only argument I could make for the European system vs. a liberal arts system. German even has a word for people who are knowledgeable in their field and nothing else: "fachidiot" (literally field-idiot). Even aside from being a well-rounded individual, the number of times it's helped in my career that I had to take university-level general education classes is huge. Even with my liberal arts background, and having worked in pretty mathy areas of industry, it's rare that I, say, have to use much from my last two years of CS education. (What they did prepare me for is getting to the point that I can read research papers in areas I've since worked in.) To be clear: virtually everywhere in the US a CS curriculum takes 4 years. There's no deciding in year three and graduating on time. You could potentially switch to CS from engineering, math or physics and get close. In Germany at least, in contrast to the US, there's no coursework in a PhD, which I believe is the main thing that makes a PhD shorter than, say, a US PhD directly after a bachelors degree (which is typical in the sciences).
Scarblac 5y ago
In Europe the Bachelor is already fully focused on a subject, and you have to get a Master degree before you can enter PhD programs. In the US the Bachelor is much wider in scope and you can get the Master during the PhD program.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
barry-cotter 5y ago
Only in the US/Canada. The stereotype is that they may be fine researchers but they don't have the breadth that comes of spending two years doing graduate level classes.

evanb 5y ago

… if you already have a master’s degree, which takes 2 years. In the US many 5-6 year PhD programs do not require—and in fact include—a master’s degree.

bombadilo 5y ago
A masters is typically one year full time, two years part time.
- trenchgun 5y ago
  Incorrect. In Europe a bachelors is either 3 or 4 years, and a masters is either 1 or 2 years. Full time. Source: https://ec.europa.eu/education/resources-and-tools/european-credit-transfer-and-accumulation-system-ects_en https://ec.europa.eu/education/resources-and-tools/european-...
  - trenchgun 5y ago
    Of course, it is possible to do a 90 ECTS masters (1 year full time) for two years part time. And it's possible to do a 180 ECTS masters (2 year full time) for four years part time.
    - Flashtoo 5y ago
      A full year is 60 ECTS. 180 would be three years full time.
Zababa 5y ago
Oh, that explains a lot. In France it's usually 3 years (180 ECTS) for a license (which is usually equivalent to a bachelor), 2 years (120 ECTS) for a master's degree and then usually 3 years for a PhD. At least in software, most people have a master's degree.
jstx1 5y ago
This isn't the case in England. Most master's degrees are 1 year and a master's isn't a requirement for many PhD programmes. So it's possible to do your entire higher education, including a PhD, in 6 years (3 years of undergrad + 3 years full-time PhD).