6 ms·

can stenography be used to write code? or is it only for text based on speech?

by jore 5y ago

foobarbaz33 5y ago
Usually the "busy work" of repeated idioms in code are best handled by snippets. Most IDEs, Emacs, and Vim have really advanced support for snippet expansion. The actual custom typing in code is pretty small in comparison. A few var names that auto complete assists with anyway. I'm sure there is some gains to be had with using steno on code. But I'd bet there's less a return on code than with English prose.
_flux 5y ago
It can. Here's an example of using Plover (now part of the openstenography project it seems): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=711T2simRyI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=711T2simRyI (I know this is not the only presentation in the existence but it's one that I found; there's one by the author of Plover within some longer presentation about it.) Honestly, doesn't seem super fast to me :-).
- jore 5y ago
  thanks, it also does not look fast to me and does not seem to improve the process the way it does for speech. Additionally I guess there is a steep learning curve so it is definitely not for everybody
  - kremlin 5y ago
    considering typing time isn't even close to the most time consuming part of programming, I don't think this will be relevant to programmers apart from the programmers who want to do it for fun
    - comma_at 5y ago
      https://danluu.com/productivity-velocity/ https://danluu.com/productivity-velocity/ Docstrings, writing documentation, talking to colleagues on Slack, asking questions on stackoverflow, writing mails, browsing, working in the terminal. We spend a lot of time writing. How much time could one save by e.g. doubling the speed? Another aspect is of the working memory - will it free your brain's resources? Will allow writing at the speed of thought allow for new/more thoughts? I think we should explore these waters, and steno is a solid choice.
    - _flux 5y ago
      I don't believe that is true. While nobody can deny the fact that most of the time in programming indeed is not spent writing, how about this: you type slower than you can think. So, when you get an idea, it's nice to be able to transfer the idea to the source code, so you can then move on the next idea or next part of the same one. You don't want to be held back by an inferior input method or a language with a lot of ceremonial about doing simple stuff. This happens in short bursts, even if the total time is quite short. Sometime it happens so that one thinks faster than one can speak. This usually leads you to get mixed up in words. A fast way to enter ideas is an important part of developing ergnomics.
  - keyle 5y ago
    The thing about code though is that it is succinct by design and a lot of thinking goes into writing 3 lines of code that will work coherently. So with typing keywords fast and efficient auto-completion, I doubt Steno would somehow make you a faster developer. Clarity and correctness rules over speed here.
charcircuit 5y ago
It's not practical due to coding requiring special symbols, camelCase, and you tend to not write code just going forward. Steno is good for transcription or taking notes, but it's not great at other things.
- laumars 5y ago
  In addition to that, I’d wager few people have long bouts of thinking code faster than they can type it. The act of typing is usually the easiest part of the whole process.
- ArchieMaclean 5y ago
  CamelCase is built in to Plover! [1] symbols work too - they might have less intuitive memorisation, but you don't use that many anyway (unless you're in APL...but that doesn't work with normal keyboards either). You can set up Vim-like navigation e.t.c. too (e.g. [2]), for moving about in code. I haven't tried it. I think however that the benefits of coding with Plover aren't really great enough to justify the huge struggle it would be to get proficient with it. [1] https://github.com/openstenoproject/plover/wiki/Dictionary-Format#modes https://github.com/openstenoproject/plover/wiki/Dictionary-F... [2] http://www.openstenoproject.org/stenodict/dictionaries/vim_di.html http://www.openstenoproject.org/stenodict/dictionaries/vim_d...
  - charcircuit 5y ago
    Switching modes requires an extra chord. Movement in your editor now takes chords with a bunch of keys instead of 2. Steno is really flexible, but when you try to shoehorn it into situations where it's not good at the average chords per character typed.
- comma_at 5y ago
  To balance the views, Mirabai, the person who started this project, does live transcription in vim and uses it for editing the notes as well. Ted, one of the lead developers, uses steno daily for programming. Emily, another user and plugin developer, has developed dictionaries to help with symbolic input and modifiers (e.g. ctrl+shift+x). There are plugins for changing case (camel, lower, snake etc.)
zozbot234 5y ago
Stenography is inherently language-dependent, and most existing steno "theories" (i.e. input systems) are tailored towards natural-language text; hence one would have to design a special "theory" for each programming language, and provide custom steno chords (or chord sequences) for each identifier within any given project. So it would involve a lot of work, but the benefit could also be significant since steno seems to be a lot less RSI-prone than traditional keyboard typing.

can stenography be used to write code? or is it only for text based on speech?

by jore 5y ago

can stenography be used to write code? or is it only for text based on speech?

Usually the "busy work" of repeated idioms in code are best handled by snippets. Most IDEs, Emacs, and Vim have really advanced support for snippet expansion. The actual custom typing in code is pretty small in comparison. A few var names that auto complete assists with anyway. I'm sure there is some gains to be had with using steno on code. But I'd bet there's less a return on code than with English prose.

_flux 5y ago

It can. Here's an example of using Plover (now part of the openstenography project it seems): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=711T2simRyI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=711T2simRyI (I know this is not the only presentation in the existence but it's one that I found; there's one by the author of Plover within some longer presentation about it.) Honestly, doesn't seem super fast to me :-).

jore 5y ago
thanks, it also does not look fast to me and does not seem to improve the process the way it does for speech. Additionally I guess there is a steep learning curve so it is definitely not for everybody
- kremlin 5y ago
  considering typing time isn't even close to the most time consuming part of programming, I don't think this will be relevant to programmers apart from the programmers who want to do it for fun
  - comma_at 5y ago
    https://danluu.com/productivity-velocity/ https://danluu.com/productivity-velocity/ Docstrings, writing documentation, talking to colleagues on Slack, asking questions on stackoverflow, writing mails, browsing, working in the terminal. We spend a lot of time writing. How much time could one save by e.g. doubling the speed? Another aspect is of the working memory - will it free your brain's resources? Will allow writing at the speed of thought allow for new/more thoughts? I think we should explore these waters, and steno is a solid choice.
  - _flux 5y ago
    I don't believe that is true. While nobody can deny the fact that most of the time in programming indeed is not spent writing, how about this: you type slower than you can think. So, when you get an idea, it's nice to be able to transfer the idea to the source code, so you can then move on the next idea or next part of the same one. You don't want to be held back by an inferior input method or a language with a lot of ceremonial about doing simple stuff. This happens in short bursts, even if the total time is quite short. Sometime it happens so that one thinks faster than one can speak. This usually leads you to get mixed up in words. A fast way to enter ideas is an important part of developing ergnomics.
- keyle 5y ago
  The thing about code though is that it is succinct by design and a lot of thinking goes into writing 3 lines of code that will work coherently. So with typing keywords fast and efficient auto-completion, I doubt Steno would somehow make you a faster developer. Clarity and correctness rules over speed here.

charcircuit 5y ago

It's not practical due to coding requiring special symbols, camelCase, and you tend to not write code just going forward. Steno is good for transcription or taking notes, but it's not great at other things.

laumars 5y ago
In addition to that, I’d wager few people have long bouts of thinking code faster than they can type it. The act of typing is usually the easiest part of the whole process.
ArchieMaclean 5y ago
CamelCase is built in to Plover! [1] symbols work too - they might have less intuitive memorisation, but you don't use that many anyway (unless you're in APL...but that doesn't work with normal keyboards either). You can set up Vim-like navigation e.t.c. too (e.g. [2]), for moving about in code. I haven't tried it. I think however that the benefits of coding with Plover aren't really great enough to justify the huge struggle it would be to get proficient with it. [1] https://github.com/openstenoproject/plover/wiki/Dictionary-Format#modes https://github.com/openstenoproject/plover/wiki/Dictionary-F... [2] http://www.openstenoproject.org/stenodict/dictionaries/vim_di.html http://www.openstenoproject.org/stenodict/dictionaries/vim_d...
- charcircuit 5y ago
  Switching modes requires an extra chord. Movement in your editor now takes chords with a bunch of keys instead of 2. Steno is really flexible, but when you try to shoehorn it into situations where it's not good at the average chords per character typed.
comma_at 5y ago
To balance the views, Mirabai, the person who started this project, does live transcription in vim and uses it for editing the notes as well. Ted, one of the lead developers, uses steno daily for programming. Emily, another user and plugin developer, has developed dictionaries to help with symbolic input and modifiers (e.g. ctrl+shift+x). There are plugins for changing case (camel, lower, snake etc.)

zozbot234 5y ago

Stenography is inherently language-dependent, and most existing steno "theories" (i.e. input systems) are tailored towards natural-language text; hence one would have to design a special "theory" for each programming language, and provide custom steno chords (or chord sequences) for each identifier within any given project. So it would involve a lot of work, but the benefit could also be significant since steno seems to be a lot less RSI-prone than traditional keyboard typing.