6 ms·

How hard can it be to design a self-driving boat for inland shipping? (2020)

37 points by dalben 5y ago

mr2loco 5y ago
there is a dutch startup called roboat thats working on autonomous boats for transportation of humans. Eventually we will also have autonomous Cargo ships
- NicoJuicy 5y ago
  As far as I'm aware, dot ocean does it too ( Belgium - https://www.dotocean.eu/ https://www.dotocean.eu/ ) By coincidence, they also had an experiment in Amsterdam. Note: Friends of me.
  - mr2loco 5y ago
    Looks awesome. Bookmarked the page tell your friends I'm rooting for them thats an interesting project
  - dalben 5y ago
    When I met them (years ago), they seemed to be more focused on open waters. In particular, I believe they were providing monitoring vessels in the Mediterranean during the refugee crisis.
    - NicoJuicy 5y ago
      There are multiple products as far as i know (it's not an easy market to get into) - Their IOT big data platform ( Atlantis - https://www.dotocean.eu/products/atlantis/ https://www.dotocean.eu/products/atlantis/) - Dredging canals cheaper - Autonomous boats - Underwater soil detection with a probe I'm not really sure if there is a specific focus on open waters though, but i don't think so.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
WastingMyTime89 5y ago
This is an interesting article but it needs a big disclaimer. They are designing a self-driving boat without using sonars not radars due to their budget. It's fun but of little relevance to the real world. Most of their problems would be solved or at least heavily alleviated with access to the relevant sensors. Still, that's quite impressive for a college project built on a shoe string.
harrylepotter 5y ago
From a practical sense though, wouldn’t the staffing costs pale in significance to the other costs of running a large vessel?
- dalben 5y ago
  It depends. For last-mile delivery and public transport with small vessels, that may not be the case. The city of Ghent was eyeing autonomous small crafts as "water taxis", and a big shipping provider wanted to do last-mile(s) delivery for shops, restaurants, and small parcel pickup points along a river. For the latter case, the vessel would still be manned, but instead of having to navigate, that person could sort and prepare parcels for delivery.
- lbriner 5y ago
  I don't think it is the costs necessarily but the availability of people with the right skills. Even with the money, you can't just magic up qualified mariners. Also, a significant amount of money is spent providing 24 hour cover of navigation in the bridge so I guess you could save something by automating a lot of it. You are probably right that in the extreme, it would be better to have some humans to make sure your containers make it to their destination!
- throwaway0a5e 5y ago
  Economics of scale are the whole point of large vessels so yeah, there's much less money to be saved eliminating crew on ships vs semi truck drivers (or even shipyard equipment operators).
- kayodelycaon 5y ago
  If we’re talking practical, you’d always need people on board to deal with mechanical breakdown or emergencies. And you’d need all the support systems and supplies need for them. After factoring that in, how large is the bridge crew on a container ship? Also, pirates would become a problem because taking over a ship without a crew would easier and way less risk.
  - xattt 5y ago
Havoc 5y ago
For those interested in this sort of stuff have a look at YouTube channel rctestflight - very cool diy projects. Less ML and more solar powered waypoints but still found it insightful on the unique challenge water provides
yobbo 5y ago
Railways outcompeted canals for shipping, and then road trucks outcompeted railways. Controlling the boat near the dock is probably more difficult than cars or air planes since swells/waves/winds can move the boat relative to the dock. The robot needs to read the water and wind to protect the boat from collisions. As taxis, docking/taking on passengers is tricky since it needs to handle situations when people cling onto rails and risk getting stuck between the boat and the dock.
- golergka 5y ago
  > Controlling the boat near the dock is probably more difficult than cars or air planes since swells/waves/winds can move the boat relative to the dock. For a layman, it sounds as the same kind of difficulty as controlling a drone in the air. It's not perception and identification of millions of different objects, neither it is predicting other driver's behaviour on the road — it's a physical process. Computers seem to be quite effective at adapting to that.
- lbriner 5y ago
  There are already gps-based systems that can do this on large ships but they are designed for open-water and can keep the boat surprisingly stable even in high winds as long as the ship has thrusters. You are right though, being by the dock is harder although at this point, you are likely to have some kind of personnel to help tether the boat to the quay.
- Gwypaas 5y ago
  All depends on how far you go with your maneuvering capabilities, which is simply related to costs. Dynamic positioning [0] has existed for a long while and has now moved down even to small dual engined boats [1], on the other hand it requires much more tech and sideways and rotational thrust capabilities than what regular cargo vessels have. A single prop with a bow thruster, or especially without, can't move freely in the 2D space which makes it much more complicated because you have to move towards the dock with the correct angle depending on wind, current and what not. Then time your maneuvers while taking the environment and for example prop walk [2] and other effects into consideration. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_positioning https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_positioning [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=491RkaOYfr4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=491RkaOYfr4 Volvo Penta Assisted Docking [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propeller_walk https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propeller_walk
RappingBoomer 5y ago
hmmm..stuff still happens on inland waterways...bad stuff...sometimes the gales of november come early

37 points by dalben 5y ago

there is a dutch startup called roboat thats working on autonomous boats for transportation of humans. Eventually we will also have autonomous Cargo ships

NicoJuicy 5y ago
As far as I'm aware, dot ocean does it too ( Belgium - https://www.dotocean.eu/ https://www.dotocean.eu/ ) By coincidence, they also had an experiment in Amsterdam. Note: Friends of me.
- mr2loco 5y ago
  Looks awesome. Bookmarked the page tell your friends I'm rooting for them thats an interesting project
- dalben 5y ago
  When I met them (years ago), they seemed to be more focused on open waters. In particular, I believe they were providing monitoring vessels in the Mediterranean during the refugee crisis.
  - NicoJuicy 5y ago
    There are multiple products as far as i know (it's not an easy market to get into) - Their IOT big data platform ( Atlantis - https://www.dotocean.eu/products/atlantis/ https://www.dotocean.eu/products/atlantis/) - Dredging canals cheaper - Autonomous boats - Underwater soil detection with a probe I'm not really sure if there is a specific focus on open waters though, but i don't think so.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

WastingMyTime89 5y ago

This is an interesting article but it needs a big disclaimer. They are designing a self-driving boat without using sonars not radars due to their budget. It's fun but of little relevance to the real world. Most of their problems would be solved or at least heavily alleviated with access to the relevant sensors. Still, that's quite impressive for a college project built on a shoe string.

harrylepotter 5y ago

From a practical sense though, wouldn’t the staffing costs pale in significance to the other costs of running a large vessel?

dalben 5y ago
It depends. For last-mile delivery and public transport with small vessels, that may not be the case. The city of Ghent was eyeing autonomous small crafts as "water taxis", and a big shipping provider wanted to do last-mile(s) delivery for shops, restaurants, and small parcel pickup points along a river. For the latter case, the vessel would still be manned, but instead of having to navigate, that person could sort and prepare parcels for delivery.
lbriner 5y ago
I don't think it is the costs necessarily but the availability of people with the right skills. Even with the money, you can't just magic up qualified mariners. Also, a significant amount of money is spent providing 24 hour cover of navigation in the bridge so I guess you could save something by automating a lot of it. You are probably right that in the extreme, it would be better to have some humans to make sure your containers make it to their destination!
throwaway0a5e 5y ago
Economics of scale are the whole point of large vessels so yeah, there's much less money to be saved eliminating crew on ships vs semi truck drivers (or even shipyard equipment operators).
kayodelycaon 5y ago
If we’re talking practical, you’d always need people on board to deal with mechanical breakdown or emergencies. And you’d need all the support systems and supplies need for them. After factoring that in, how large is the bridge crew on a container ship? Also, pirates would become a problem because taking over a ship without a crew would easier and way less risk.
- xattt 5y ago

Havoc 5y ago

For those interested in this sort of stuff have a look at YouTube channel rctestflight - very cool diy projects. Less ML and more solar powered waypoints but still found it insightful on the unique challenge water provides

yobbo 5y ago

Railways outcompeted canals for shipping, and then road trucks outcompeted railways. Controlling the boat near the dock is probably more difficult than cars or air planes since swells/waves/winds can move the boat relative to the dock. The robot needs to read the water and wind to protect the boat from collisions. As taxis, docking/taking on passengers is tricky since it needs to handle situations when people cling onto rails and risk getting stuck between the boat and the dock.

golergka 5y ago
> Controlling the boat near the dock is probably more difficult than cars or air planes since swells/waves/winds can move the boat relative to the dock. For a layman, it sounds as the same kind of difficulty as controlling a drone in the air. It's not perception and identification of millions of different objects, neither it is predicting other driver's behaviour on the road — it's a physical process. Computers seem to be quite effective at adapting to that.
lbriner 5y ago
There are already gps-based systems that can do this on large ships but they are designed for open-water and can keep the boat surprisingly stable even in high winds as long as the ship has thrusters. You are right though, being by the dock is harder although at this point, you are likely to have some kind of personnel to help tether the boat to the quay.
Gwypaas 5y ago
All depends on how far you go with your maneuvering capabilities, which is simply related to costs. Dynamic positioning [0] has existed for a long while and has now moved down even to small dual engined boats [1], on the other hand it requires much more tech and sideways and rotational thrust capabilities than what regular cargo vessels have. A single prop with a bow thruster, or especially without, can't move freely in the 2D space which makes it much more complicated because you have to move towards the dock with the correct angle depending on wind, current and what not. Then time your maneuvers while taking the environment and for example prop walk [2] and other effects into consideration. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_positioning https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_positioning [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=491RkaOYfr4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=491RkaOYfr4 Volvo Penta Assisted Docking [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propeller_walk https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propeller_walk

RappingBoomer 5y ago

hmmm..stuff still happens on inland waterways...bad stuff...sometimes the gales of november come early