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Considering everything and their dog now runs on some sort of lithium ion battery, it very much is the new oil. I don't see why wars wouldn't be fought over it

by AHabe 5y ago

Considering everything and their dog now runs on some sort of lithium ion battery, it very much is the new oil. I don't see why wars wouldn't be fought over it, certainly has been the case for oil.

starbugs 5y ago
It is not an energy source though. So the comparison to oil is at least a bit flawed if you ask me.
- fendy3002 5y ago
  As a factorio player, energy storages are as important as energy source itself. Especially for renewables since the energy sources are practically unlimited (and the efficiencies are increasing) but very fluctuate. And if you see from other perspective, oil are both energy storage and energy source, which is "almost" equivalent with solar cells and batteries.
  - starbugs 5y ago
    As I said in my other reply, I think the difference is really ERoEI. And that's very likely an important difference. Because you wouldn't get an economical system if you're not able to get a competitive ERoEI from the whole system (including storage). I suspect to take oil's status you'd therefore have to have something that allows you to also cheaply get the energy, not only store it. Lithium as an input to storage is really just a small part of the whole picture. Like a barrel is for oil.
- tiborsaas 5y ago
  It's an intermediary source and it doesn't care where that energy came from. The oil analogy is not that far fetched if you consider that both are tied to a geographic location where they needs to be extracted.
  - starbugs 5y ago
    That's likely true if you look at network effects, but maybe not so true if you look at energy return on energy invested (ERoEI). In my opinion, the latter is a big part of oil's status as a "universal" energy source/carrier.
panick21_ 5y ago
War over lithium would be totally insane. Every continent has basically unlimited amount of lithium. Its not an energy source and the ratio of how expensive it is to mine and how expensive you can sell it is nowhere close to oil. Fighting wars over lithium deposit would be insanely dumb and that will never happen. Lithium is not a consumable, once you have it you keep it. We need it now to grow the fleet but once the fleet is replaced recycling will be the most economical way to get it.

by AHabe 5y ago

Considering everything and their dog now runs on some sort of lithium ion battery, it very much is the new oil. I don't see why wars wouldn't be fought over it, certainly has been the case for oil.

starbugs 5y ago

It is not an energy source though. So the comparison to oil is at least a bit flawed if you ask me.

fendy3002 5y ago
As a factorio player, energy storages are as important as energy source itself. Especially for renewables since the energy sources are practically unlimited (and the efficiencies are increasing) but very fluctuate. And if you see from other perspective, oil are both energy storage and energy source, which is "almost" equivalent with solar cells and batteries.
- starbugs 5y ago
  As I said in my other reply, I think the difference is really ERoEI. And that's very likely an important difference. Because you wouldn't get an economical system if you're not able to get a competitive ERoEI from the whole system (including storage). I suspect to take oil's status you'd therefore have to have something that allows you to also cheaply get the energy, not only store it. Lithium as an input to storage is really just a small part of the whole picture. Like a barrel is for oil.
tiborsaas 5y ago
It's an intermediary source and it doesn't care where that energy came from. The oil analogy is not that far fetched if you consider that both are tied to a geographic location where they needs to be extracted.
- starbugs 5y ago
  That's likely true if you look at network effects, but maybe not so true if you look at energy return on energy invested (ERoEI). In my opinion, the latter is a big part of oil's status as a "universal" energy source/carrier.

panick21_ 5y ago

War over lithium would be totally insane. Every continent has basically unlimited amount of lithium. Its not an energy source and the ratio of how expensive it is to mine and how expensive you can sell it is nowhere close to oil. Fighting wars over lithium deposit would be insanely dumb and that will never happen. Lithium is not a consumable, once you have it you keep it. We need it now to grow the fleet but once the fleet is replaced recycling will be the most economical way to get it.