5 ms·

It takes 30 hours for VW to build an ID.4 vs 10 for Tesla to build a Model 3. That won't be an easy gap to close.

by beanjammin 5y ago

zz865 5y ago
Seriously, does anyone really care about how many hours it takes?
- patagurbon 5y ago
  The manufacturers no doubt. Musk, and by extension Tesla, has been seriously focused on ease of manufacturing. Probably since the huge problems Tesla faced in the late 2010s.
  - captnObvious 5y ago
    They should be. The longer the build cycle the more errors there will be in the build. Each job is a dependency for the next job. A long build time either indicates that individual assembly technicians have too many steps in their job (it is much harder to remember 25 steps than 5 steps) or that the plant is assembling more parts locally than their competitors. If you have an engine shipped in complete from your supplier that is less time your plant spends assembling a dependency at build time. Electric cars should in theory assemble much faster than gas. Fewer parts. Less complexity in the mechanical assembly of the drive train. When corporate overlords dictate that an assembly plant meet production numbers that it isn’t capable of accurately producing they shell out complete garbage. Inspection lines flag errors that managers ship with disregard in order to meet numbers. Every time.
- judge2020 5y ago
  The economics of scale trickle down into cost savings for the consumer, even if it is by only a fraction of what the manufacturer saves. There's a reason the id.4 costs about the same as a base Model 3 and you get less of a car for it (not factoring in federal tax credit, which might be returning to Tesla soon anyways).
marticode 5y ago
..and you can tell by the fit and finish too! https://jalopnik.com/watch-a-pro-detailer-point-out-all-the-flaws-on-a-tesla-1847839135 https://jalopnik.com/watch-a-pro-detailer-point-out-all-the-...
HWR_14 5y ago
Does it matter how long it takes? Doesn't just total output matter? Heck, "throw more servers at it" has been an accepted practice. Who cares if it takes 30 hours as opposed to 10 if you can have 3x the number of cars under construction at one time.
- sliken 5y ago
  First of all worker 30 hours of labor * factory workforce is a significant fraction of the cost of a car, and not easy to improve. Additionally a plant that takes 30 hours per car is typically going to have less output than a plant that takes 10 hours per car. Typically each minute during production the car is taking up space, being worked on humans or robots, etc. Additionally efficiencies favor shorter pipelines. Generally a 10 hour pipeline is physically shorter than a 30 hour. Parts, staff, troubleshooting etc is easier on a smaller pipeline. Additionally having each car bridge 4 working shifts for the workers has overheads of it's own compared to 1-2 shifts. Doubly so if you are trying to iterate quickly. Imagine an assembly line moving at 0.5 mph, for the same physical foot print you could have 3 lines that are 10 hours each instead of a single line that runs for 30 hours. Now imagine there's a issue that shuts down a line for an hour, it's better if it's 1/3rd of your capacity down instead of 100%. If you try an improvement, it's better to put 1/3rd of your production capacity at risk instead of 100%.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - thow-58d4e8b 5y ago
    For a typical car, only about 10-15% of the manufacturing cost is labor. And that's talking about Toyota Corollas and euro econobox hatchbacks. For a premium electric car, it's probably a single digit Also, the whole claim would really need a citation, and careful parsing of the methodology. 3x difference in a mature industry like car assembly is very unlikely, and requires a very strong proof to back that statement up.
    - sliken 5y ago
azinman2 5y ago
I’d be curious to know what’s QA in that breakdown, or where you got that data, and what Tesla’s numbers have been over time. But let’s assume that’s true. Tesla has been building electric cars for how long? VW is basically just getting started for real (modular platform for all their cars unlike the eGolf), and still makes ICE cars as well. It’s never a good idea to discount your competitors. I doubt Elon does even if comments on HN do.
bigtex 5y ago
How many Id 4's have water in the trunk due to poor build quality?
dexterdog 5y ago
Does that include how much they have to fix after the fact because of non-existent QA?
hef19898 5y ago
We aren't seriously thinking that Tesla beats the likes of VW in mass production of cars, are we?
- mehrdada 5y ago
  Teslas are much simpler designs to build at scale, while traditional automakers have perfected the ICE design and manufacturing, they see everything through that eye and bring the warts and complexity from the devil they know (as an example, most non-Tesla EVs do not have a floor battery architecture). It is not at all inconceivable for Tesla to leapfrog the traditional automaker in building EVs they design. That does not contradict VW's ability to produce ICE at scale.
- jliptzin 5y ago
  Why not? Once you switch to building EVs you can instantly throw your 100+ years of experience building internal combustion engines out the window.
  - hef19898 5y ago
    Engines? Sure. The actual FAL where all comes together? The logistics that come with it? Not so much.
- rcMgD2BwE72F 5y ago
  Yes, listen to Herbert Diess.
chmod600 5y ago
You mean labor hours? Time in the factory from beginning to end?

It takes 30 hours for VW to build an ID.4 vs 10 for Tesla to build a Model 3. That won't be an easy gap to close.

zz865 5y ago

Seriously, does anyone really care about how many hours it takes?

patagurbon 5y ago
The manufacturers no doubt. Musk, and by extension Tesla, has been seriously focused on ease of manufacturing. Probably since the huge problems Tesla faced in the late 2010s.
- captnObvious 5y ago
  They should be. The longer the build cycle the more errors there will be in the build. Each job is a dependency for the next job. A long build time either indicates that individual assembly technicians have too many steps in their job (it is much harder to remember 25 steps than 5 steps) or that the plant is assembling more parts locally than their competitors. If you have an engine shipped in complete from your supplier that is less time your plant spends assembling a dependency at build time. Electric cars should in theory assemble much faster than gas. Fewer parts. Less complexity in the mechanical assembly of the drive train. When corporate overlords dictate that an assembly plant meet production numbers that it isn’t capable of accurately producing they shell out complete garbage. Inspection lines flag errors that managers ship with disregard in order to meet numbers. Every time.
judge2020 5y ago
The economics of scale trickle down into cost savings for the consumer, even if it is by only a fraction of what the manufacturer saves. There's a reason the id.4 costs about the same as a base Model 3 and you get less of a car for it (not factoring in federal tax credit, which might be returning to Tesla soon anyways).

marticode 5y ago

..and you can tell by the fit and finish too! https://jalopnik.com/watch-a-pro-detailer-point-out-all-the-flaws-on-a-tesla-1847839135 https://jalopnik.com/watch-a-pro-detailer-point-out-all-the-...

HWR_14 5y ago

Does it matter how long it takes? Doesn't just total output matter? Heck, "throw more servers at it" has been an accepted practice. Who cares if it takes 30 hours as opposed to 10 if you can have 3x the number of cars under construction at one time.

sliken 5y ago
First of all worker 30 hours of labor * factory workforce is a significant fraction of the cost of a car, and not easy to improve. Additionally a plant that takes 30 hours per car is typically going to have less output than a plant that takes 10 hours per car. Typically each minute during production the car is taking up space, being worked on humans or robots, etc. Additionally efficiencies favor shorter pipelines. Generally a 10 hour pipeline is physically shorter than a 30 hour. Parts, staff, troubleshooting etc is easier on a smaller pipeline. Additionally having each car bridge 4 working shifts for the workers has overheads of it's own compared to 1-2 shifts. Doubly so if you are trying to iterate quickly. Imagine an assembly line moving at 0.5 mph, for the same physical foot print you could have 3 lines that are 10 hours each instead of a single line that runs for 30 hours. Now imagine there's a issue that shuts down a line for an hour, it's better if it's 1/3rd of your capacity down instead of 100%. If you try an improvement, it's better to put 1/3rd of your production capacity at risk instead of 100%.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- thow-58d4e8b 5y ago
  For a typical car, only about 10-15% of the manufacturing cost is labor. And that's talking about Toyota Corollas and euro econobox hatchbacks. For a premium electric car, it's probably a single digit Also, the whole claim would really need a citation, and careful parsing of the methodology. 3x difference in a mature industry like car assembly is very unlikely, and requires a very strong proof to back that statement up.
  - sliken 5y ago

azinman2 5y ago

I’d be curious to know what’s QA in that breakdown, or where you got that data, and what Tesla’s numbers have been over time. But let’s assume that’s true. Tesla has been building electric cars for how long? VW is basically just getting started for real (modular platform for all their cars unlike the eGolf), and still makes ICE cars as well. It’s never a good idea to discount your competitors. I doubt Elon does even if comments on HN do.

bigtex 5y ago

How many Id 4's have water in the trunk due to poor build quality?

dexterdog 5y ago

Does that include how much they have to fix after the fact because of non-existent QA?

hef19898 5y ago

We aren't seriously thinking that Tesla beats the likes of VW in mass production of cars, are we?

mehrdada 5y ago
Teslas are much simpler designs to build at scale, while traditional automakers have perfected the ICE design and manufacturing, they see everything through that eye and bring the warts and complexity from the devil they know (as an example, most non-Tesla EVs do not have a floor battery architecture). It is not at all inconceivable for Tesla to leapfrog the traditional automaker in building EVs they design. That does not contradict VW's ability to produce ICE at scale.
jliptzin 5y ago
Why not? Once you switch to building EVs you can instantly throw your 100+ years of experience building internal combustion engines out the window.
- hef19898 5y ago
  Engines? Sure. The actual FAL where all comes together? The logistics that come with it? Not so much.
rcMgD2BwE72F 5y ago
Yes, listen to Herbert Diess.

chmod600 5y ago

You mean labor hours? Time in the factory from beginning to end?