7 ms·

I feel like programmers have become "soft". I bet the old guard is okay with something like this - a lot of C, C++, assembly skills - this is what it meant to m

I feel like programmers have become "soft". I bet the old guard is okay with something like this - a lot of C, C++, assembly skills - this is what it meant to mess around with computers! Now, you can just be modifying CSS and call yourself a programmer. You get one of these devices, and you're sorely disappointed!

twis 5y ago
The pool of programmers has grown. There are more good programmers than ever, but the barrier to entry is also lower. It isn't necessary to pass through that kind of trial by fire anymore.
- DeathArrow 5y ago
  Yeah, the barrier is lower, many people can write Electron apps now.
djent 5y ago
I don't think the elitism here is necessary or even the root of the issue of code contributions. The apps currently present in these PinePhone operating systems were developed and are supported by knowledgeable and hardworking PinePhone users, but the fewer developers there are, the more limited the support is.
marcellus23 5y ago
> a lot of C, C++, assembly skills - this is what it meant to mess around with computers! I can't believe this is getting upvoted on HN. What kind of gatekeeping elitist bullshit is this?
- milbertson 5y ago
  Though a bit elitist, his comment isn't discouraging anybody, and does hold some truth in that getting closer to the hardware allows you to do things you can't do otherwise. I feel like it's unfair to disparage him as harshly as that.
- ncmncm 5y ago
  I don't see anything elitist. Anyone can learn assembly language, C, and even C++ and Rust with a bit more dedication. Anyway, much of the work getting these phones ready as daily drivers is in getting apps that run on them mature. There are lots of languages adequate for apps.
  - pjmlp 5y ago
    Or learn Swift or Kotlin, and target iOS or Android instead.
    - ncmncm 5y ago
      Or even, you know, not.
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
- DeathArrow 5y ago
  What's elitist in learning a craft properly? Working with a higher level language doesn't mean that learning C, C++, algorithms, data structures and a bit of math isn't terrible useful.
no_time 5y ago
As the complexity of our every day devices increase, less and less people are capable of contributing anything meaningful to an OS like Linux, let alone in their free time. It also doesn't help that the abundance of high level languages discourages learning about computer internals in younger generations. Or that we indeed became softies lol.
- dylan604 5y ago
  Those harder classes used to be referred to as weed out courses. Incoming class of 100+ students to Assembler. After 2 weeks, 60%+ drop the class.
  - 3836293648 5y ago
    I'm currently TA:ing my uni's Introductory Computer Engineering class (from logic gates to assembly). It's not as much of a weed out class as you'd think and yes, it's the first class they take, along side some introductory python. Most of them do seem to hate the assembly part though personally I found the part where you have to actually make an instruction to be much harder when I had to take this class
- megous 5y ago
  Language is very small part of it. For example me contributing a anx7688 driver for pinephone to make convergence work was C coding, yes, but also reading through type-c spec, battery charging 1.2 spec, usb-pd specs, alt-dp specs, and figuring out how it all works from 0 knowledge, to tie all that together on a quirky HW design, with several hardware bugs that I had to discover first, and non-cooperating PMIC/and type-c controller, on 3 different pinephone HW variants. C coding is the easiest thing. Hard part is figuring out what needs to be done and getting quite detailed understanding of how everything works on HW level, lots of trying and testing with various USB devices in various scenarios. There's also a lot of reverse engineering, because no HW vendor cooperates with random fucks from the internet and gives them free support. :)
  - ianai 5y ago

twis 5y ago

The pool of programmers has grown. There are more good programmers than ever, but the barrier to entry is also lower. It isn't necessary to pass through that kind of trial by fire anymore.

DeathArrow 5y ago
Yeah, the barrier is lower, many people can write Electron apps now.

djent 5y ago

I don't think the elitism here is necessary or even the root of the issue of code contributions. The apps currently present in these PinePhone operating systems were developed and are supported by knowledgeable and hardworking PinePhone users, but the fewer developers there are, the more limited the support is.

marcellus23 5y ago

> a lot of C, C++, assembly skills - this is what it meant to mess around with computers! I can't believe this is getting upvoted on HN. What kind of gatekeeping elitist bullshit is this?

milbertson 5y ago
Though a bit elitist, his comment isn't discouraging anybody, and does hold some truth in that getting closer to the hardware allows you to do things you can't do otherwise. I feel like it's unfair to disparage him as harshly as that.
ncmncm 5y ago
I don't see anything elitist. Anyone can learn assembly language, C, and even C++ and Rust with a bit more dedication. Anyway, much of the work getting these phones ready as daily drivers is in getting apps that run on them mature. There are lots of languages adequate for apps.
- pjmlp 5y ago
  Or learn Swift or Kotlin, and target iOS or Android instead.
  - ncmncm 5y ago
    Or even, you know, not.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
DeathArrow 5y ago
What's elitist in learning a craft properly? Working with a higher level language doesn't mean that learning C, C++, algorithms, data structures and a bit of math isn't terrible useful.

no_time 5y ago

As the complexity of our every day devices increase, less and less people are capable of contributing anything meaningful to an OS like Linux, let alone in their free time. It also doesn't help that the abundance of high level languages discourages learning about computer internals in younger generations. Or that we indeed became softies lol.

dylan604 5y ago
Those harder classes used to be referred to as weed out courses. Incoming class of 100+ students to Assembler. After 2 weeks, 60%+ drop the class.
- 3836293648 5y ago
  I'm currently TA:ing my uni's Introductory Computer Engineering class (from logic gates to assembly). It's not as much of a weed out class as you'd think and yes, it's the first class they take, along side some introductory python. Most of them do seem to hate the assembly part though personally I found the part where you have to actually make an instruction to be much harder when I had to take this class
megous 5y ago
Language is very small part of it. For example me contributing a anx7688 driver for pinephone to make convergence work was C coding, yes, but also reading through type-c spec, battery charging 1.2 spec, usb-pd specs, alt-dp specs, and figuring out how it all works from 0 knowledge, to tie all that together on a quirky HW design, with several hardware bugs that I had to discover first, and non-cooperating PMIC/and type-c controller, on 3 different pinephone HW variants. C coding is the easiest thing. Hard part is figuring out what needs to be done and getting quite detailed understanding of how everything works on HW level, lots of trying and testing with various USB devices in various scenarios. There's also a lot of reverse engineering, because no HW vendor cooperates with random fucks from the internet and gives them free support. :)
- ianai 5y ago