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India's first forays into semiconductor fabrication in the 80s and 90s were likewise enthusiastically supported by the government (land, incentives, tax breaks

by maldeh 5y ago

India's first forays into semiconductor fabrication in the 80s and 90s were likewise enthusiastically supported by the government (land, incentives, tax breaks and so on), but were ultimately hamstrung by more fundamental infrastructure issues that couldn't just be magicked away - water shortages and unstable power grids - each of which could grind manufacturing to a halt for months on end and delayed production cycles. (I think there was also a major fire in a leading SC plant that caused delays by years.) If anything these shortcomings could be exacerbated in 2021-22. The government would need a much more comprehensive infrastructural solution this time around.

beloch 5y ago
Even so, it's not hard to see why India remains alluring for tech companies. Wages are low and there's a massive number of young workers with more on the way. In these respects, India is, now, what China was a few decades ago. Plus, it's right next door to existing supply chains and less encumbered by international politics. If the problems can be solved, the returns will be great.
- thrashh 5y ago
  The clincher is whether it can be solved. Infrastructure is so crucial to every society, every process, and every organization and yet it is also so often not given the attention that it needs. .
- brigandish 5y ago
  The last time that China's government was instituting economic policies that threatened the trade of the world's premier power (by hoarding silver and holding a monopoly in tea) it was solved by the British government and its agents diversifying tea supply via India and being far more militarily aggressive, which does seem to be mirrored somewhat by recent events. If Facebook et al are truly addictive then I could make the stretch to that and the exportation of opium over foreign borders, but that's more of a worldwide blight.
  - kamaal 5y ago
    China is a lot more open this time around. Their silk/belt-road initiatives, span across continents. What you are describing actually applies more to USA than China. Its USA which is a closed country and shutting out anyone it has a mild disagreement with(a.k.a sanctions).
    - ngcc_hk 5y ago
      Can USA corp like Facebook, YouTube, ebay gets into china. Can china wechat, … Fact ah. USA is a closed country. Great 50 cents or what.
    - mjburgess 5y ago
      Err... the remarkable thing about the US recently is that it is using sanctions at all. Not that it is "shutting out" people. In comparison with China, the US is one of the most open countries in the world. China is horrifically closed-off to investment, imports, and so on.
    - redis_mlc 5y ago
      > China is a lot more open this time around. Their silk/belt-road initiatives, span across continents. Where to start ... You realize that BRI doesn't have grants, just debt, right? The purpose of BRI is to build ports for the CCP navy, but have somebody else pay for them.
  - NotSammyHagar 5y ago
    I like that metaphor that Facebook could be this time's opium export. The US exported intellectual opium, but we suffer from it too. We did it to ourselves though in the us, instead of someone making us use it (or did russia push into this along with cambridge analytica - this crazy example almost pans out).
- baybal2 5y ago
  > Wages are low and there's a massive number of young workers with more on the way. Please, check again. Indian engineers are by no means cheap. They had decades long experience working with the West. They know American wage levels well, and bargain to the end.
- balefrost 5y ago
  Plus, it's right next door to existing supply chains Not as the boat flies. To be fair, I know nothing about shipping logistics... but it seems like quite a detour to me.
- beckman466 5y ago
  > [China is] less encumbered by international politics in what way(s)?
baybal2 5y ago
>India's first forays into semiconductor fabrication in the 80s and 90s were likewise enthusiastically supported by the government https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=isBYV6QWDIo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=isBYV6QWDIo
MangoCoffee 5y ago
i was thinking how come India didn't take China's approach to prop up their own foundry like SMIC. since India seem to have a need for semis. from the article: "India’s semiconductor demand is said to be valued at around US$24 billion and is expected to reach US$100 billion by 2025. The country’s semiconductor demand currently is entirely met through imports."
- jychang 5y ago
  How much of that is replaceable though? Most of those are Intel/AMD/etc chips that you can't just drop in another foundry to replace.
downrightmike 5y ago
Agreed. They were absolutely hamstrung because their facilities burned down and were only restored to s shadow of their former selves. They are still generations behind everyone else, and not able to use their anywhere near their full capacity. Plus their competitors took the opportunity to hire the best people that India away from the state fabs. Shame really, if they could increase their output, this shortage would be the time to regain some footing.
sitkack 5y ago
Given how bad a power fault is on a fab, chemical processes that can't be interrupted and air filtration and pressure systems, I'd put a redundant Tesla battery as the UPS to a fab, anywhere.
- liketochill 5y ago
  I would install large diesel generators well before anything from tesla if I wanted a reliable power supply
  - sitkack 5y ago
    Generators would have to kick on and over, with a battery backup it could be pass through. Tesla was used as a representative example.
    - liketochill 5y ago
      Run on generator the whole time if you have an unreliable power system like India.
    - ReptileMan 5y ago
      Actually any decent backup system uses combination of both ...
bane 5y ago
On this topic I recently came across this very good video on this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=isBYV6QWDIo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=isBYV6QWDIo
kamaal 5y ago
>>water shortages and unstable power grids In Bangalore the tech parks most of the time run on diesel generators. And the water is kind of de-facto supplied through tankers. There is a fair bit of rain water harvesting but they are not putting in enough to use that through borewells. My guess is something similar will be worked out this time as well. South Bangalore/Hosur seems like a nice place for something like this.
- fakedang 5y ago
  As much as I would love to agree (since I have a home in Bangalore on the route to Hosur), it's not really possible. Bangalore suffers from severe water shortages largely exacerbated by developers building over former water harvesting reservoirs. You'll need way too much power and water, that it would just be cheaper to shift manufacturing elsewhere (to, say, Pune).

by maldeh 5y ago

beloch 5y ago

Even so, it's not hard to see why India remains alluring for tech companies. Wages are low and there's a massive number of young workers with more on the way. In these respects, India is, now, what China was a few decades ago. Plus, it's right next door to existing supply chains and less encumbered by international politics. If the problems can be solved, the returns will be great.

thrashh 5y ago
The clincher is whether it can be solved. Infrastructure is so crucial to every society, every process, and every organization and yet it is also so often not given the attention that it needs. .
brigandish 5y ago
The last time that China's government was instituting economic policies that threatened the trade of the world's premier power (by hoarding silver and holding a monopoly in tea) it was solved by the British government and its agents diversifying tea supply via India and being far more militarily aggressive, which does seem to be mirrored somewhat by recent events. If Facebook et al are truly addictive then I could make the stretch to that and the exportation of opium over foreign borders, but that's more of a worldwide blight.
- kamaal 5y ago
  China is a lot more open this time around. Their silk/belt-road initiatives, span across continents. What you are describing actually applies more to USA than China. Its USA which is a closed country and shutting out anyone it has a mild disagreement with(a.k.a sanctions).
  - ngcc_hk 5y ago
    Can USA corp like Facebook, YouTube, ebay gets into china. Can china wechat, … Fact ah. USA is a closed country. Great 50 cents or what.
  - mjburgess 5y ago
    Err... the remarkable thing about the US recently is that it is using sanctions at all. Not that it is "shutting out" people. In comparison with China, the US is one of the most open countries in the world. China is horrifically closed-off to investment, imports, and so on.
  - redis_mlc 5y ago
    > China is a lot more open this time around. Their silk/belt-road initiatives, span across continents. Where to start ... You realize that BRI doesn't have grants, just debt, right? The purpose of BRI is to build ports for the CCP navy, but have somebody else pay for them.
- NotSammyHagar 5y ago
  I like that metaphor that Facebook could be this time's opium export. The US exported intellectual opium, but we suffer from it too. We did it to ourselves though in the us, instead of someone making us use it (or did russia push into this along with cambridge analytica - this crazy example almost pans out).
baybal2 5y ago
> Wages are low and there's a massive number of young workers with more on the way. Please, check again. Indian engineers are by no means cheap. They had decades long experience working with the West. They know American wage levels well, and bargain to the end.
balefrost 5y ago
Plus, it's right next door to existing supply chains Not as the boat flies. To be fair, I know nothing about shipping logistics... but it seems like quite a detour to me.
beckman466 5y ago
> [China is] less encumbered by international politics in what way(s)?

baybal2 5y ago

>India's first forays into semiconductor fabrication in the 80s and 90s were likewise enthusiastically supported by the government https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=isBYV6QWDIo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=isBYV6QWDIo

MangoCoffee 5y ago

i was thinking how come India didn't take China's approach to prop up their own foundry like SMIC. since India seem to have a need for semis. from the article: "India’s semiconductor demand is said to be valued at around US$24 billion and is expected to reach US$100 billion by 2025. The country’s semiconductor demand currently is entirely met through imports."

jychang 5y ago
How much of that is replaceable though? Most of those are Intel/AMD/etc chips that you can't just drop in another foundry to replace.

downrightmike 5y ago

Agreed. They were absolutely hamstrung because their facilities burned down and were only restored to s shadow of their former selves. They are still generations behind everyone else, and not able to use their anywhere near their full capacity. Plus their competitors took the opportunity to hire the best people that India away from the state fabs. Shame really, if they could increase their output, this shortage would be the time to regain some footing.

sitkack 5y ago

Given how bad a power fault is on a fab, chemical processes that can't be interrupted and air filtration and pressure systems, I'd put a redundant Tesla battery as the UPS to a fab, anywhere.

liketochill 5y ago
I would install large diesel generators well before anything from tesla if I wanted a reliable power supply
- sitkack 5y ago
  Generators would have to kick on and over, with a battery backup it could be pass through. Tesla was used as a representative example.
  - liketochill 5y ago
    Run on generator the whole time if you have an unreliable power system like India.
  - ReptileMan 5y ago
    Actually any decent backup system uses combination of both ...

bane 5y ago

On this topic I recently came across this very good video on this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=isBYV6QWDIo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=isBYV6QWDIo

kamaal 5y ago

>>water shortages and unstable power grids In Bangalore the tech parks most of the time run on diesel generators. And the water is kind of de-facto supplied through tankers. There is a fair bit of rain water harvesting but they are not putting in enough to use that through borewells. My guess is something similar will be worked out this time as well. South Bangalore/Hosur seems like a nice place for something like this.

fakedang 5y ago
As much as I would love to agree (since I have a home in Bangalore on the route to Hosur), it's not really possible. Bangalore suffers from severe water shortages largely exacerbated by developers building over former water harvesting reservoirs. You'll need way too much power and water, that it would just be cheaper to shift manufacturing elsewhere (to, say, Pune).