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Crude analysis of gender pay gap. What is the difference in experience level, hours worked, industry, etc.? Pay gap "headed in the wrong direction" could easily

Crude analysis of gender pay gap. What is the difference in experience level, hours worked, industry, etc.? Pay gap "headed in the wrong direction" could easily be more women entering the field at a junior level, which would actually be heading in the right direction.

chiefalchemist 5y ago
It's also self-reported. Men, they say, in general are "bolder". That translates to over-stating and/or those with something to "brag" about are more likely to respond.
- z3c0 5y ago
  While I believe "boldness" is more related to personality than to gender, I have noticed the "bragging bias" you've described quite a bit. But it goes both ways. That is to say "people respond to surveys when they have something to say." If you believe you're being paid too little, you're just as likely to chime in as somebody who wants to brag about their pay. It's the folks in the middle who end up not chiming in, out of the belief that they have little insight to offer. Because of this, ootional surveys oftentime yield biases towards the extremes. Source: I've analyzed survey data a lot
  - chiefalchemist 5y ago
    Multiple studies show men on average apply for jobs they are not fully qualified for. Women on the other hand are more "conservative" and take less risk (so to speak). Yes, of course, there are variations from person to person, sans gender. But there are also gender-centric cultural norms.
jldugger 5y ago
More formally, this is the origin story for Simpson's paradox: when you combine subgroups, trends can disappear or even reverse. The more dimensions you analyze, the close to 'truth' you can get. This is why you have such varying claims about stuff like women earning equal pay with men. People who want social change (activists, politicans) group together the entire population, and come to the conclusion that women make 83 cents on the dollar. But when you break out along other dimensions (age/YOE, occupation, hours worked), the gap is reduced. But never eliminated! What I'd really like to do some day is be smart enough to replicate https://www.metafilter.com/126704/with-numbers-like-these-why-would-women-want-to-work-in-games#4905768 https://www.metafilter.com/126704/with-numbers-like-these-wh... and see how more recent census data compares.
- xenocyon 5y ago
  "The more dimensions you analyze, the close to 'truth' you can get." Data scientist here. The above is not the correct takeaway from Simpson's paradox. It is not generally correct that the trends seen in subdivided groups are closer to truth than overall groups; sometimes the opposite is the case. It depends entirely on what the divisions are and whether they make sense. With regard to gender-based pay disparity, there are a multiplicity of factors, from the most obvious ("equal pay for equal work") to other factors such as the fact that professions largely staffed by women tend to get paid less than professions largely staffed by men. For instance childcare is miserably compensated, despite being a position of high responsibility and impact. The consensus regarding women during the pandemic (not limited to tech workers) was that women have disproportionately sacrificed their careers to cover the needs of childcare and at-home schooling during the pandemic.
  - jldugger 5y ago
    > The above is not the correct takeaway from Simpson's paradox. It is not generally correct that the trends seen in subdivided groups are closer to truth than overall groups; This is why the word truth was in scare quotes. And the word 'can' was also doing a lot of work in that sentence.
  - droopyEyelids 5y ago
    Should people who sacrifice their careers for noble goals be paid less? Not that I am demanding an answer from you specifically. It's just a weird question in the context of a country where wage labor is the only real source of income for individuals.
    - AmericanChopper 5y ago
      What does “paid less” even mean in this context? If you sacrifice your career, you sacrifice the remuneration you were receiving from it. It’s part of the career…
    - gremloni 5y ago
      Your goal is the “noble” goal now, not your career.
oingodoingo 5y ago
don’t forget that more women dropped out of work to handle childcare during the pandemic
gremloni 5y ago
I rarely see these discussions encompass minority populations. With an astounding amount of tech work being done by minority/immigrant populations, I always find it’s a voice that’s missing.
- bradlys 5y ago
  Which populations are we talking about? In the USA, I presume? AFAIK - there isn’t an astounding amount of work being done by descendants of american slaves, people who are hispanic, native american, or pacific islander. So, maybe you can speak about which minorities you mean specifically.
  - gremloni 5y ago
    Irrespective of their contributions to tech, I’m referring to all minorities

chiefalchemist 5y ago

It's also self-reported. Men, they say, in general are "bolder". That translates to over-stating and/or those with something to "brag" about are more likely to respond.

z3c0 5y ago
While I believe "boldness" is more related to personality than to gender, I have noticed the "bragging bias" you've described quite a bit. But it goes both ways. That is to say "people respond to surveys when they have something to say." If you believe you're being paid too little, you're just as likely to chime in as somebody who wants to brag about their pay. It's the folks in the middle who end up not chiming in, out of the belief that they have little insight to offer. Because of this, ootional surveys oftentime yield biases towards the extremes. Source: I've analyzed survey data a lot
- chiefalchemist 5y ago
  Multiple studies show men on average apply for jobs they are not fully qualified for. Women on the other hand are more "conservative" and take less risk (so to speak). Yes, of course, there are variations from person to person, sans gender. But there are also gender-centric cultural norms.

jldugger 5y ago

More formally, this is the origin story for Simpson's paradox: when you combine subgroups, trends can disappear or even reverse. The more dimensions you analyze, the close to 'truth' you can get. This is why you have such varying claims about stuff like women earning equal pay with men. People who want social change (activists, politicans) group together the entire population, and come to the conclusion that women make 83 cents on the dollar. But when you break out along other dimensions (age/YOE, occupation, hours worked), the gap is reduced. But never eliminated! What I'd really like to do some day is be smart enough to replicate https://www.metafilter.com/126704/with-numbers-like-these-why-would-women-want-to-work-in-games#4905768 https://www.metafilter.com/126704/with-numbers-like-these-wh... and see how more recent census data compares.

xenocyon 5y ago
"The more dimensions you analyze, the close to 'truth' you can get." Data scientist here. The above is not the correct takeaway from Simpson's paradox. It is not generally correct that the trends seen in subdivided groups are closer to truth than overall groups; sometimes the opposite is the case. It depends entirely on what the divisions are and whether they make sense. With regard to gender-based pay disparity, there are a multiplicity of factors, from the most obvious ("equal pay for equal work") to other factors such as the fact that professions largely staffed by women tend to get paid less than professions largely staffed by men. For instance childcare is miserably compensated, despite being a position of high responsibility and impact. The consensus regarding women during the pandemic (not limited to tech workers) was that women have disproportionately sacrificed their careers to cover the needs of childcare and at-home schooling during the pandemic.
- jldugger 5y ago
  > The above is not the correct takeaway from Simpson's paradox. It is not generally correct that the trends seen in subdivided groups are closer to truth than overall groups; This is why the word truth was in scare quotes. And the word 'can' was also doing a lot of work in that sentence.
- droopyEyelids 5y ago
  Should people who sacrifice their careers for noble goals be paid less? Not that I am demanding an answer from you specifically. It's just a weird question in the context of a country where wage labor is the only real source of income for individuals.
  - AmericanChopper 5y ago
    What does “paid less” even mean in this context? If you sacrifice your career, you sacrifice the remuneration you were receiving from it. It’s part of the career…
  - gremloni 5y ago
    Your goal is the “noble” goal now, not your career.

oingodoingo 5y ago

don’t forget that more women dropped out of work to handle childcare during the pandemic

gremloni 5y ago

I rarely see these discussions encompass minority populations. With an astounding amount of tech work being done by minority/immigrant populations, I always find it’s a voice that’s missing.

bradlys 5y ago
Which populations are we talking about? In the USA, I presume? AFAIK - there isn’t an astounding amount of work being done by descendants of american slaves, people who are hispanic, native american, or pacific islander. So, maybe you can speak about which minorities you mean specifically.
- gremloni 5y ago
  Irrespective of their contributions to tech, I’m referring to all minorities