6 ms·

I'm not doubting major abuse occurred, and the church needs major reforms. But we should hold the numbers up to the same standard that we hold all other numbers

I'm not doubting major abuse occurred, and the church needs major reforms. But we should hold the numbers up to the same standard that we hold all other numbers to. There should be a detailed description of the sampling and data, a detailed description or the model used for the projection, and a detailed description and justification for any bias adjustments. Any results should have an error band. Otherwise, this is likely published with an agenda, not to find the truth.

rich_sasha 5y ago
I sort of agree, estimates ought to be specific. My point is that unless these numbers are off by many orders of magnitude, they already represent failure beyond even the most lenient assumptions of incompetence. I used to think, well, someone accuses a priest, who knows maybe that's right or not, churches err on the side of innocence without proper evidence, and the rare monsters slip through the net. With more light being shed on this in Poland, I now believe this is not the case. There were now dozens of cases where each individual one ought to bring prosecutions on the ground of organised criminal organisation exploiting children (or at least organised cover-up), with the CC's top hierarchs held responsible. Each individual one, never mind the dozens that made it to the news. So whether it's really 216,000 children abused, or even just 1% of that, I think this is catastrophic. Unless these numbers are inflated by a factor of 100,000, I'll stick to my opinion.
- cowanon22 5y ago
  I don't disagree with you - the church has major problems some of which still need correction. But there is a clear media bias in the US - compare the American articles to a much more details one in French (Google Translate works well) https://www.lefigaro.fr/actualite-france/les-cinq-chiffres-cles-du-rapport-sauve-sur-les-abus-sexuels-dans-l-eglise-catholique-20211005 https://www.lefigaro.fr/actualite-france/les-cinq-chiffres-c...
TheOtherHobbes 5y ago
No. It's an insult to the victims to attempt statistical whataboutery. The record is clear and damning. A decimal point or two on the percentages doesn't change the facts. Even one story like this is one story too many. And the number of stories like these is much greater than one. https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/school-of-savagery-stuck-forever-in-that-room-in-manchester-with-my-trousers-round-my-ankles-1.4667606 https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/school-of-s...
- cowanon22 5y ago
  This isn't "statistical whataboutery", it is basic ethical reporting. The French media got it mostly right; The US media got it mostly wrong. We must have a zero tolerance policy for abuse, but bad reporting and bad extrapolation serve no one.
jliptzin 5y ago
Reforms? What about completely shutting the whole thing down. What other institution out there would be able to be responsible for such an unbelievable level of abuse and not get prosecuted/sued into oblivion?
- cowanon22 5y ago
  Should we also shut down schools, scouting programs, day cares, adoption, camping, etc? All of these have had almost exactly the same size and scope of scandal.
  - jliptzin 5y ago
    Really? Which camps or day cares have sexually abused hundreds of thousands of kids?

rich_sasha 5y ago

I sort of agree, estimates ought to be specific. My point is that unless these numbers are off by many orders of magnitude, they already represent failure beyond even the most lenient assumptions of incompetence. I used to think, well, someone accuses a priest, who knows maybe that's right or not, churches err on the side of innocence without proper evidence, and the rare monsters slip through the net. With more light being shed on this in Poland, I now believe this is not the case. There were now dozens of cases where each individual one ought to bring prosecutions on the ground of organised criminal organisation exploiting children (or at least organised cover-up), with the CC's top hierarchs held responsible. Each individual one, never mind the dozens that made it to the news. So whether it's really 216,000 children abused, or even just 1% of that, I think this is catastrophic. Unless these numbers are inflated by a factor of 100,000, I'll stick to my opinion.

cowanon22 5y ago
I don't disagree with you - the church has major problems some of which still need correction. But there is a clear media bias in the US - compare the American articles to a much more details one in French (Google Translate works well) https://www.lefigaro.fr/actualite-france/les-cinq-chiffres-cles-du-rapport-sauve-sur-les-abus-sexuels-dans-l-eglise-catholique-20211005 https://www.lefigaro.fr/actualite-france/les-cinq-chiffres-c...

TheOtherHobbes 5y ago

No. It's an insult to the victims to attempt statistical whataboutery. The record is clear and damning. A decimal point or two on the percentages doesn't change the facts. Even one story like this is one story too many. And the number of stories like these is much greater than one. https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/school-of-savagery-stuck-forever-in-that-room-in-manchester-with-my-trousers-round-my-ankles-1.4667606 https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/school-of-s...

cowanon22 5y ago
This isn't "statistical whataboutery", it is basic ethical reporting. The French media got it mostly right; The US media got it mostly wrong. We must have a zero tolerance policy for abuse, but bad reporting and bad extrapolation serve no one.

jliptzin 5y ago

Reforms? What about completely shutting the whole thing down. What other institution out there would be able to be responsible for such an unbelievable level of abuse and not get prosecuted/sued into oblivion?

cowanon22 5y ago
Should we also shut down schools, scouting programs, day cares, adoption, camping, etc? All of these have had almost exactly the same size and scope of scandal.
- jliptzin 5y ago
  Really? Which camps or day cares have sexually abused hundreds of thousands of kids?