6 ms·

So when you sit in endless meaningless meetings and see how the management create insurmountable obstacles that make it impossible to actually do some meaningfu

So when you sit in endless meaningless meetings and see how the management create insurmountable obstacles that make it impossible to actually do some meaningful work while whining about deadlines and changing the requirements on a whim, you should just be thankful that you have a nice paying job? Well you can be thankful and still cry inside since if the management were competent, you could get 3x done. If you feel this several decades you die inside little by little until you do what is described in the article.

dahfizz 5y ago
There are people who would do anything to make a FAANG salary. Acting like sitting in meetings is hard shows exactly how much of a bubble you are in. Imagine explaining this to a dirt poor Hatian: "You will have unimaginable wealth, but sometimes you have to sit in a meeting and do nothing. It's really hard"
- AQuantized 5y ago
  The criteria was that is was the best job available in the world's wealthiest country, not that it was palatable to a someone living in a very poor country plagued with issues much lower on Maslow's hierarchy
  - mywittyname 5y ago
    Lots of American developers would love for a FAANG salary too. Total comp at a FAANG is now, what like $500-800k for a mid-senior position? Outside of a handful of areas in the USA, that same person would be earning, maybe $100k, no stock, and passable benefits.
    - BurritoAlPastor 5y ago
      Mid-senior is more like $300-400k.
      - HeyLaughingBoy 5y ago
        I really don't think that changes the point!
    - masterof0 5y ago
      ^^^ Burrito is right, levels.fyi is your friend.
    - gmadsen 5y ago
      Ok? what is your point? Are they physically and mentally capable of achieving that? How much do they desire that goal? Are they willing to sacrifice other things in their life for that? Its not like FAANG employees are picked out of a hat
    - throw8383833jj 5y ago
      Working for FAANG simply isn't sustainable. First of all, it's very difficult to get a job there as an engineer. And even if you did, most people don't last very long: I think the average is like 2 years. And, even if you somehow manage to stay longer than 2 years, you're going to keep getting abused with high pressure work environment: I've heard several first hand accounts of this. and you can find evidence of the same, all over glass door if you read the reviews.
      - burntoutfire 5y ago
        There's also plenty of people who refer to Google as a retirement home. It's a huge company, individual experiences will vary.
      - comp_throw7 5y ago
        It's not that difficult, FAANG (literally just those 5 companies) employ probably at least 5% of the SWEs in the country; add in all the other companies that pay comparable money and you're probably at 8-10%. Something that 10% of engineers can do (and, realistically, much more than 10% - how many engineers have never even tried to get in? At least half?) is, by definition, not "very difficult", relatively to the baseline level of difficulty inherent in the job. I don't know why you think the average tenure across FAANGs is 2 years but it no doubt varies heavily by company. As another comment mentioned, Google has notoriously good WLB, and any individual team will be more predictive than the company as a whole. You'll hear plenty of "first-hand accounts" of high-pressure work environments because hundreds of thousands of engineers work at those companies!
- gmadsen 5y ago
  what a straw man you are making. It is meaningless to diminish the wants/needs of one by comparing to some arbitrary level of poverty in the world. Everyone desires self actualization, and that is different for each person. If you are highly creative and technically competent, then yes, endless meetings are a detriment to that goal. A starving Hatian doesn't negate that.
- commandlinefan 5y ago
  You don't even have to invoke a dirt poor Haitian, you can just invoke younger me: I thought then that if I even made half of what I make now, I'd want for nothing. And the reality is, I'm doing pretty well. But that doesn't mean there aren't some things that could stand to improve.
jseban 5y ago
Yeah and there are many blue collar jobs where workers have way more integrity and respect, and where the managers are actually (held) accountable. Being a software developer is pretty spineless in comparison, even though you make more money and get to sit on your ass. I think it's unhealthy and causes burnout. Edit: that's why people make FIRE exists and start physical jobs instead, become farmers etc, it's not as simple as a job being hard or easy, but stressful, irrational, alienating and in other ways unhealthy that doesn't necessarily make it obviously "hard".
- mywittyname 5y ago
  I'd say my desire for a physical job post-engineering comes from an innate desire to build physical objects. Building software doesn't really press all the buttons. I mean, I love my job, but I still plan to FIRE and become a machinist or something.
- redisman 5y ago
  People make fire exits.. because they can. All jobs suck if you prize freedom. I’d probably do more gardening in fire but I could never fire on a similar load of work in a gardening job.
kerbs 5y ago
I think the point is that these are not real problems. My wife works in healthcare, and agree that our "problems" are paltry relative to what they deal with. "Instead of 6-3 your hours are now 6-to-6 3 days a week because we lost coverage in the evening. Tough noogies" She gets paid 1/2 what those with 4 years of experience in our field get, and works on brains and spines.
- wombat-man 5y ago
  yeah, I've known people working in Law and Banking. Lawyers at big firms work grueling hours until they get promoted enough. One of my friend works at a major consulting firm, he knows they just grind new accounting grads until they burn out every. year. They just hire new ones the next year. Banking analysts, actually pretty much everyone in banking is in what sounds like an unending grind. The exception I've heard is if you can somehow push through as an IB and make it into being a VP you can calm down. So, yeah. Meetings are boring, the work is sometimes uninspired but things are pretty cushy for us right now.
  - ipaddr 5y ago
    Remember we are talking about senior developers. People with 15, 20, 25 years of experience. By that point in law you are not grinding.
    - theshadowknows 5y ago
      Yeah I’m a “sr architect” on an enterprise team where I work. I work from home in my home office and I get to see my wife all day or play with the dog. But at the same time I have dozens of people screaming at me over Teams it email or sometimes just calling me. Everything is always top priority. Everything is mission critical. Every project deadline is static and can’t be budged even a little bit. Don’t get me wrong. I’ve worked in factories before. And gas stations. And warehouses unloading trucks. I know what a hard day is like in a physical job earning a fraction of what I earn now. But at the end of the day it’s also about what it costs to earn that salary. And when sr leadership refuses to listen or understand something and when projects change wildly or have no direction…it might not be the same as unloading trucks of heavy boxes in the summer…but it really, really sucks to work so hard and build things that are genuinely cool only to have then be pulled into meetings the next day asking why you suck at your job.
MrDresden 5y ago
My way to deal with this is to pocket the money, while planning my exit by way of launching my own products. Once one of them get some traction, I am out.
burlesona 5y ago
I wouldn’t do that, I’d change jobs. That’s the awesome thing about working in software - we’re so in-demand, and there are so many jobs where you don’t just sit in meetings all day. Alternatively I might try to get into management and see if I could make it more competent. I did that for a stretch at a Big Co, and I think I was able to really help my team to deep work and get a lot done. But then I was personally in meetings for roughly 40 hours a week and I got sick of that, so I changed jobs.
theshadowknows 5y ago
It’s 12:15 pm and I’ve been working since 3:00 am trying to keep on top of deadlines but in my current role I’m an architect and I’m also the engineer that builds the things I design. And I’m also the only point of contact for testing. And I’m the only point of contact for troubleshooting. I don’t have an engineering or qa team..it’s just me by myself. And it crushed my soul every morning when I wake up. I’d quit right now if my wife didn’t require expensive and complicated medical treatment. I guess that’s more a problem with the medical system than anything. But even with savings we wouldn’t be able to last more than a year if we didn’t find similar income with similar insurance.
edmundsauto 5y ago
If you truly could get 3x as much done, why not just go out and do it on your own? (Because all the stuff you don’t like actually has value, and you need someone to do it!)

dahfizz 5y ago

There are people who would do anything to make a FAANG salary. Acting like sitting in meetings is hard shows exactly how much of a bubble you are in. Imagine explaining this to a dirt poor Hatian: "You will have unimaginable wealth, but sometimes you have to sit in a meeting and do nothing. It's really hard"

AQuantized 5y ago
The criteria was that is was the best job available in the world's wealthiest country, not that it was palatable to a someone living in a very poor country plagued with issues much lower on Maslow's hierarchy
- mywittyname 5y ago
  Lots of American developers would love for a FAANG salary too. Total comp at a FAANG is now, what like $500-800k for a mid-senior position? Outside of a handful of areas in the USA, that same person would be earning, maybe $100k, no stock, and passable benefits.
  - BurritoAlPastor 5y ago
    Mid-senior is more like $300-400k.
    - HeyLaughingBoy 5y ago
      I really don't think that changes the point!
  - masterof0 5y ago
    ^^^ Burrito is right, levels.fyi is your friend.
  - gmadsen 5y ago
    Ok? what is your point? Are they physically and mentally capable of achieving that? How much do they desire that goal? Are they willing to sacrifice other things in their life for that? Its not like FAANG employees are picked out of a hat
  - throw8383833jj 5y ago
    Working for FAANG simply isn't sustainable. First of all, it's very difficult to get a job there as an engineer. And even if you did, most people don't last very long: I think the average is like 2 years. And, even if you somehow manage to stay longer than 2 years, you're going to keep getting abused with high pressure work environment: I've heard several first hand accounts of this. and you can find evidence of the same, all over glass door if you read the reviews.
    - burntoutfire 5y ago
      There's also plenty of people who refer to Google as a retirement home. It's a huge company, individual experiences will vary.
    - comp_throw7 5y ago
      It's not that difficult, FAANG (literally just those 5 companies) employ probably at least 5% of the SWEs in the country; add in all the other companies that pay comparable money and you're probably at 8-10%. Something that 10% of engineers can do (and, realistically, much more than 10% - how many engineers have never even tried to get in? At least half?) is, by definition, not "very difficult", relatively to the baseline level of difficulty inherent in the job. I don't know why you think the average tenure across FAANGs is 2 years but it no doubt varies heavily by company. As another comment mentioned, Google has notoriously good WLB, and any individual team will be more predictive than the company as a whole. You'll hear plenty of "first-hand accounts" of high-pressure work environments because hundreds of thousands of engineers work at those companies!
gmadsen 5y ago
what a straw man you are making. It is meaningless to diminish the wants/needs of one by comparing to some arbitrary level of poverty in the world. Everyone desires self actualization, and that is different for each person. If you are highly creative and technically competent, then yes, endless meetings are a detriment to that goal. A starving Hatian doesn't negate that.
commandlinefan 5y ago
You don't even have to invoke a dirt poor Haitian, you can just invoke younger me: I thought then that if I even made half of what I make now, I'd want for nothing. And the reality is, I'm doing pretty well. But that doesn't mean there aren't some things that could stand to improve.

jseban 5y ago

Yeah and there are many blue collar jobs where workers have way more integrity and respect, and where the managers are actually (held) accountable. Being a software developer is pretty spineless in comparison, even though you make more money and get to sit on your ass. I think it's unhealthy and causes burnout. Edit: that's why people make FIRE exists and start physical jobs instead, become farmers etc, it's not as simple as a job being hard or easy, but stressful, irrational, alienating and in other ways unhealthy that doesn't necessarily make it obviously "hard".

mywittyname 5y ago
I'd say my desire for a physical job post-engineering comes from an innate desire to build physical objects. Building software doesn't really press all the buttons. I mean, I love my job, but I still plan to FIRE and become a machinist or something.
redisman 5y ago
People make fire exits.. because they can. All jobs suck if you prize freedom. I’d probably do more gardening in fire but I could never fire on a similar load of work in a gardening job.

kerbs 5y ago

I think the point is that these are not real problems. My wife works in healthcare, and agree that our "problems" are paltry relative to what they deal with. "Instead of 6-3 your hours are now 6-to-6 3 days a week because we lost coverage in the evening. Tough noogies" She gets paid 1/2 what those with 4 years of experience in our field get, and works on brains and spines.

wombat-man 5y ago
yeah, I've known people working in Law and Banking. Lawyers at big firms work grueling hours until they get promoted enough. One of my friend works at a major consulting firm, he knows they just grind new accounting grads until they burn out every. year. They just hire new ones the next year. Banking analysts, actually pretty much everyone in banking is in what sounds like an unending grind. The exception I've heard is if you can somehow push through as an IB and make it into being a VP you can calm down. So, yeah. Meetings are boring, the work is sometimes uninspired but things are pretty cushy for us right now.
- ipaddr 5y ago
  Remember we are talking about senior developers. People with 15, 20, 25 years of experience. By that point in law you are not grinding.
  - theshadowknows 5y ago
    Yeah I’m a “sr architect” on an enterprise team where I work. I work from home in my home office and I get to see my wife all day or play with the dog. But at the same time I have dozens of people screaming at me over Teams it email or sometimes just calling me. Everything is always top priority. Everything is mission critical. Every project deadline is static and can’t be budged even a little bit. Don’t get me wrong. I’ve worked in factories before. And gas stations. And warehouses unloading trucks. I know what a hard day is like in a physical job earning a fraction of what I earn now. But at the end of the day it’s also about what it costs to earn that salary. And when sr leadership refuses to listen or understand something and when projects change wildly or have no direction…it might not be the same as unloading trucks of heavy boxes in the summer…but it really, really sucks to work so hard and build things that are genuinely cool only to have then be pulled into meetings the next day asking why you suck at your job.

MrDresden 5y ago

My way to deal with this is to pocket the money, while planning my exit by way of launching my own products. Once one of them get some traction, I am out.

burlesona 5y ago

I wouldn’t do that, I’d change jobs. That’s the awesome thing about working in software - we’re so in-demand, and there are so many jobs where you don’t just sit in meetings all day. Alternatively I might try to get into management and see if I could make it more competent. I did that for a stretch at a Big Co, and I think I was able to really help my team to deep work and get a lot done. But then I was personally in meetings for roughly 40 hours a week and I got sick of that, so I changed jobs.

theshadowknows 5y ago

It’s 12:15 pm and I’ve been working since 3:00 am trying to keep on top of deadlines but in my current role I’m an architect and I’m also the engineer that builds the things I design. And I’m also the only point of contact for testing. And I’m the only point of contact for troubleshooting. I don’t have an engineering or qa team..it’s just me by myself. And it crushed my soul every morning when I wake up. I’d quit right now if my wife didn’t require expensive and complicated medical treatment. I guess that’s more a problem with the medical system than anything. But even with savings we wouldn’t be able to last more than a year if we didn’t find similar income with similar insurance.

edmundsauto 5y ago

If you truly could get 3x as much done, why not just go out and do it on your own? (Because all the stuff you don’t like actually has value, and you need someone to do it!)