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> Months ago he was insisting that the people who had contracted COVID-19 and who had antibodies in their system may not need the vaccine. Now, we have a number

> Months ago he was insisting that the people who had contracted COVID-19 and who had antibodies in their system may not need the vaccine. Now, we have a number of studies coming out to support that. No such study exists, please link to the primary research. Vaccination always offers stronger protection than getting the virus [1], and more importantly, even if they offered equivalent protection for 99% of people, the portion of the additional 1% of people without a vaccine who show up at a hospital are going to be much sicker than the vaccinated with breakthrough infections and more likely to need to go or stay at a hospital for an extended period of time (29x more likely [2]), which our healthcare system cannot support. We've had to ration care and kick out cancer patients out of hospitals [3], who have subsequently died as a result of lack of care, but we should allow for limited resources to be used up by the willfully unvaccinated? I have personally had family members in need of critical care have care rationed due to hospitals being full with 99%+ unvaccinated folks. So much for the personal responsibility crowd living up to their slogans. [1] https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021/s0806-vaccination-protection.html https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021/s0806-vaccination-pr... [2] https://www.cnbc.com/2021/08/24/cdc-study-shows-unvaccinated-people-are-29-times-more-likely-to-be-hospitalized-with-covid.html https://www.cnbc.com/2021/08/24/cdc-study-shows-unvaccinated... [3] https://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/local/article253946053.html https://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/local/article25394605...

m-ee 5y ago
That’s not really true that vaccination is always more protective, immunology is complex and there’s more interesting nuance to that. See the latest twiv with Shane Crotty, he goes into detail about how natural infection plus one shot creates a better response than reversing the order. I’m not wringing my hands over anti vax content being pulled at all, but I don’t think we should be reductive about the science. That doesn’t help to establish trust.
gotoeleven 5y ago
You're simply wrong https://www.bmj.com/content/374/bmj.n2101 https://www.bmj.com/content/374/bmj.n2101 This religious fervor that has developed around the vaccine has done as much to burn the establishment's credibility as anything.
- aioprisan 5y ago
  The article doesn't say what you think it says. Please post a link to a peer reviewed article that shows that natural immunity drives better reinfection outcomes and recovery rates than vaccines do.
nradov 5y ago
There is conflicting research in this area. It's too early to declare any definitive conclusions yet. https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v1 https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v...
- lamassu 5y ago
  There is no conflicting research and the conclusion drawn by this research needs further parsing as it may not be applicable to all populations. Nonetheless, this study should not be taken as an endorsement that getting infected is a better overall option for protection than the highly effective vaccines.
- aioprisan 5y ago
  That's not conflicting research and they very clearly state that this is not peer reviewed yet. I'd hold off on using this as the basis for any claim until then.
White_Wolf 5y ago
This is recent and not peer reviewed:https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v1.full https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v... And here's some news from Israel, one of the most vaccinated countries: https://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/309762 https://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/309762 I'd say that is pretty clear cut when looking at the numbers from Israel.
- dnautics 5y ago
  moreover, if you're not monitoring israel for news ahead of time, and waiting for "cited research" you're gonna be too slow. I was ahead of the game several months about "vaccination not categorically preventing spread of delta" watching israel.
- mminer237 5y ago
  Note that this is specifically the case in regards to the Delta variant. All prior variants showed the vaccine being much more effective than infection immunity. Although, even with this, getting both still provides even greater immunity with no downside. (Plus I think far too many people will say "oh, I had a cold sometime in the last year but didn't get tested. That was probably COVID so I have an excuse to not get vaccinated now.")
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - White_Wolf 5y ago
    Dude. I'm not debating if it's good or or bad. I personally had the vaccine because I have high blood pressure and I'm borderline diabetic at 40+. I made my call and took my chances. Others should have the right to make their own call. I'm saying that "no downside" and those sort of claims are outright false and people should have the right to choose for themselves wherether the risks are worth the reward. Tell this Lisa Shaw's family that there are no downsides: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-58330796 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-58330796 Also here'a copy paste from the FDA meeting from oct 2020: FDA Safety Surveillance of COVID-19 Vaccines : DRAFTWorking list of possible adverse event outcomes*Subject to change*Guillain-Barré syndrome Acute disseminated encephalomyelitisTransverse myelitisEncephalitis/myelitis/encephalomyelitis/ meningoencephalitis/meningitis/ encepholapathyConvulsions/seizuresStrokeNarcolepsy and cataplexyAnaphylaxisAcute myocardial infarctionMyocarditis/pericarditisAutoimmune diseaseDeathsPregnancy and birth outcomesOther acute demyelinating diseasesNon-anaphylactic allergic reactionsThrombocytopeniaDisseminated intravascular coagulationVenous thromboembolismArthritis and arthralgia/joint painKawasaki diseaseMultisystem I nflammatory Syndrome in ChildrenVaccine enhanced disease
new_stranger 5y ago
Vaccines work by prompting a targeted (partial) immune response. They give your body advanced designs for part of the virus so it can be proactive - the con is a vaccine can not provide all of the information. Contracting a virus provides your body with the full genetic footprint of the virus. Assuming you survive, you should have better antibodies than what a vaccine can provide.
- jlebar 5y ago
  A compelling theory! If only it were so simple. In practice it doesn't actually work out that way. 1/3 of people who get covid have no antibodies at all, whereas everyone (who is not immunocompromised) who gets the vaccine develops antibodies. https://thehill.com/opinion/healthcare/574284-natural-covid-19-immunity-is-powerful-but-kind-of-irrelevant https://thehill.com/opinion/healthcare/574284-natural-covid-... The immune system is very complicated.
  - nradov 5y ago
    There is more to the immune system than antibodies. In order to fully assess immunity you have to look at innate responses and memory cell activity.
    - jlebar 5y ago
      Sure, absolutely. The point the author is making is that since you're more likely to get an antibody response with the vaccine, you're getting a benefit from the vaccine that there's a decent chance you won't get from catching the virus.
johncolanduoni 5y ago
Your first link does not actually claim that “vaccination always offers stronger protection than getting the virus”. It indicates “among people who were previously infected with SAR-CoV-2 [the study] shows that unvaccinated individuals are more than twice as likely to be reinfected with COVID-19 than those who were fully vaccinated after initially contracting the virus”. So it’s comparing infected + vaccinated to just infected, not just infected vs just vaccinated. You have just (unintentionally) shared misinformation about the vaccine. Would you support deleting your comment from HN?
- noptd 5y ago
  Or even their entire account (to continue with the YouTube parallel).
- rberg 5y ago
  So rephrasing what you said, unvaccinated individuals who are twice as likely to get reinfected than those with a who were vaccinated after infection means that vaccination doesn't always offer stronger protection than getting the virus? This isn't exhaustive in the sense that it doesn't cover all permutations of vaccinated, infected, and, but it shows that at least infected + vaccinated is better than infected. That seems to meet the criteria that vaccination always offer stronger protection than getting the virus (at least in the vaccinated + infected vs infected populations). But even a cursory glance at the study shows that the authors of the study knew this wasn't exhaustive, but they cite research [1] backing up OPs claim, and then add their voice to back up that vaccine > infection, vaccine + infection > infection, and make OPs conclusion in the Discussion section. RTFS [1]https://www.mdpi.com/2076-0817/10/2/138 https://www.mdpi.com/2076-0817/10/2/138
  - johncolanduoni 5y ago
    > This isn't exhaustive in the sense that it doesn't cover all permutations of vaccinated, infected, and, but it shows that at least infected + vaccinated is better than infected. That seems to meet the criteria that vaccination always offer stronger protection than getting the virus (at least in the vaccinated + infected vs infected populations). It is consistent with that criteria, but generally “always” means something stronger than “we have evidence it holds in one case”. Especially if that case is the rarest permutation. > But even a cursory glance at the study shows that the authors of the study knew this wasn't exhaustive, but they cite research [1] backing up OPs claim, and then add their voice to back up that vaccine > infection, vaccine + infection > infection, and make OPs conclusion in the Discussion section. The paper you just linked was cited on the line “Reinfection with SARS-CoV-2 has been documented, but the scientific understanding of natural infection-derived immunity is still emerging” in the OP’s article. The closest line I can find to “back up that vaccine > infection” is an offhand “ Although such laboratory evidence continues to suggest that vaccination provides improved neutralization of SARS-CoV-2 variants, limited evidence in real-world settings to date corroborates the findings that vaccination can provide improved protection for previously infected persons” which doesn’t seem like a particularly strong stance for “vaccine > infection”. Especially when we get back to the original claim which used “always”. And it appears that they may have been wise in not going that far, since now that we have studies in review that directly measure the endpoints we’re discussing it’s certainly not clear that this is true[1][2]. I’ll wait for those to get peer reviewed and more widely discussed before I’d be comfortable saying “in most cases infection > vaccine” (note I didn’t use the word “always”, which I doubt any researcher or clinician would) but the actual opposing claims in the papers you’ve cited are comparatively tangential to the original “always vaccine > infection” claim. [1]: https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.04.20.21255670v1 https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.04.20.21255670v... [2]: https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v1.full https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v...

m-ee 5y ago

That’s not really true that vaccination is always more protective, immunology is complex and there’s more interesting nuance to that. See the latest twiv with Shane Crotty, he goes into detail about how natural infection plus one shot creates a better response than reversing the order. I’m not wringing my hands over anti vax content being pulled at all, but I don’t think we should be reductive about the science. That doesn’t help to establish trust.

gotoeleven 5y ago

You're simply wrong https://www.bmj.com/content/374/bmj.n2101 https://www.bmj.com/content/374/bmj.n2101 This religious fervor that has developed around the vaccine has done as much to burn the establishment's credibility as anything.

aioprisan 5y ago
The article doesn't say what you think it says. Please post a link to a peer reviewed article that shows that natural immunity drives better reinfection outcomes and recovery rates than vaccines do.

nradov 5y ago

There is conflicting research in this area. It's too early to declare any definitive conclusions yet. https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v1 https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v...

lamassu 5y ago
There is no conflicting research and the conclusion drawn by this research needs further parsing as it may not be applicable to all populations. Nonetheless, this study should not be taken as an endorsement that getting infected is a better overall option for protection than the highly effective vaccines.
aioprisan 5y ago
That's not conflicting research and they very clearly state that this is not peer reviewed yet. I'd hold off on using this as the basis for any claim until then.

White_Wolf 5y ago

This is recent and not peer reviewed:https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v1.full https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v... And here's some news from Israel, one of the most vaccinated countries: https://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/309762 https://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/309762 I'd say that is pretty clear cut when looking at the numbers from Israel.

dnautics 5y ago
moreover, if you're not monitoring israel for news ahead of time, and waiting for "cited research" you're gonna be too slow. I was ahead of the game several months about "vaccination not categorically preventing spread of delta" watching israel.
mminer237 5y ago
Note that this is specifically the case in regards to the Delta variant. All prior variants showed the vaccine being much more effective than infection immunity. Although, even with this, getting both still provides even greater immunity with no downside. (Plus I think far too many people will say "oh, I had a cold sometime in the last year but didn't get tested. That was probably COVID so I have an excuse to not get vaccinated now.")
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- White_Wolf 5y ago
  Dude. I'm not debating if it's good or or bad. I personally had the vaccine because I have high blood pressure and I'm borderline diabetic at 40+. I made my call and took my chances. Others should have the right to make their own call. I'm saying that "no downside" and those sort of claims are outright false and people should have the right to choose for themselves wherether the risks are worth the reward. Tell this Lisa Shaw's family that there are no downsides: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-58330796 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-58330796 Also here'a copy paste from the FDA meeting from oct 2020: FDA Safety Surveillance of COVID-19 Vaccines : DRAFTWorking list of possible adverse event outcomes*Subject to change*Guillain-Barré syndrome Acute disseminated encephalomyelitisTransverse myelitisEncephalitis/myelitis/encephalomyelitis/ meningoencephalitis/meningitis/ encepholapathyConvulsions/seizuresStrokeNarcolepsy and cataplexyAnaphylaxisAcute myocardial infarctionMyocarditis/pericarditisAutoimmune diseaseDeathsPregnancy and birth outcomesOther acute demyelinating diseasesNon-anaphylactic allergic reactionsThrombocytopeniaDisseminated intravascular coagulationVenous thromboembolismArthritis and arthralgia/joint painKawasaki diseaseMultisystem I nflammatory Syndrome in ChildrenVaccine enhanced disease

new_stranger 5y ago

Vaccines work by prompting a targeted (partial) immune response. They give your body advanced designs for part of the virus so it can be proactive - the con is a vaccine can not provide all of the information. Contracting a virus provides your body with the full genetic footprint of the virus. Assuming you survive, you should have better antibodies than what a vaccine can provide.

jlebar 5y ago
A compelling theory! If only it were so simple. In practice it doesn't actually work out that way. 1/3 of people who get covid have no antibodies at all, whereas everyone (who is not immunocompromised) who gets the vaccine develops antibodies. https://thehill.com/opinion/healthcare/574284-natural-covid-19-immunity-is-powerful-but-kind-of-irrelevant https://thehill.com/opinion/healthcare/574284-natural-covid-... The immune system is very complicated.
- nradov 5y ago
  There is more to the immune system than antibodies. In order to fully assess immunity you have to look at innate responses and memory cell activity.
  - jlebar 5y ago
    Sure, absolutely. The point the author is making is that since you're more likely to get an antibody response with the vaccine, you're getting a benefit from the vaccine that there's a decent chance you won't get from catching the virus.

johncolanduoni 5y ago

Your first link does not actually claim that “vaccination always offers stronger protection than getting the virus”. It indicates “among people who were previously infected with SAR-CoV-2 [the study] shows that unvaccinated individuals are more than twice as likely to be reinfected with COVID-19 than those who were fully vaccinated after initially contracting the virus”. So it’s comparing infected + vaccinated to just infected, not just infected vs just vaccinated. You have just (unintentionally) shared misinformation about the vaccine. Would you support deleting your comment from HN?

noptd 5y ago
Or even their entire account (to continue with the YouTube parallel).
rberg 5y ago
So rephrasing what you said, unvaccinated individuals who are twice as likely to get reinfected than those with a who were vaccinated after infection means that vaccination doesn't always offer stronger protection than getting the virus? This isn't exhaustive in the sense that it doesn't cover all permutations of vaccinated, infected, and, but it shows that at least infected + vaccinated is better than infected. That seems to meet the criteria that vaccination always offer stronger protection than getting the virus (at least in the vaccinated + infected vs infected populations). But even a cursory glance at the study shows that the authors of the study knew this wasn't exhaustive, but they cite research [1] backing up OPs claim, and then add their voice to back up that vaccine > infection, vaccine + infection > infection, and make OPs conclusion in the Discussion section. RTFS [1]https://www.mdpi.com/2076-0817/10/2/138 https://www.mdpi.com/2076-0817/10/2/138
- johncolanduoni 5y ago
  > This isn't exhaustive in the sense that it doesn't cover all permutations of vaccinated, infected, and, but it shows that at least infected + vaccinated is better than infected. That seems to meet the criteria that vaccination always offer stronger protection than getting the virus (at least in the vaccinated + infected vs infected populations). It is consistent with that criteria, but generally “always” means something stronger than “we have evidence it holds in one case”. Especially if that case is the rarest permutation. > But even a cursory glance at the study shows that the authors of the study knew this wasn't exhaustive, but they cite research [1] backing up OPs claim, and then add their voice to back up that vaccine > infection, vaccine + infection > infection, and make OPs conclusion in the Discussion section. The paper you just linked was cited on the line “Reinfection with SARS-CoV-2 has been documented, but the scientific understanding of natural infection-derived immunity is still emerging” in the OP’s article. The closest line I can find to “back up that vaccine > infection” is an offhand “ Although such laboratory evidence continues to suggest that vaccination provides improved neutralization of SARS-CoV-2 variants, limited evidence in real-world settings to date corroborates the findings that vaccination can provide improved protection for previously infected persons” which doesn’t seem like a particularly strong stance for “vaccine > infection”. Especially when we get back to the original claim which used “always”. And it appears that they may have been wise in not going that far, since now that we have studies in review that directly measure the endpoints we’re discussing it’s certainly not clear that this is true[1][2]. I’ll wait for those to get peer reviewed and more widely discussed before I’d be comfortable saying “in most cases infection > vaccine” (note I didn’t use the word “always”, which I doubt any researcher or clinician would) but the actual opposing claims in the papers you’ve cited are comparatively tangential to the original “always vaccine > infection” claim. [1]: https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.04.20.21255670v1 https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.04.20.21255670v... [2]: https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v1.full https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v...