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This is the usual argument against doing large infrastructure in the USA, and I think it’s kind of missing the point: the USA also has much larger financial and

This is the usual argument against doing large infrastructure in the USA, and I think it’s kind of missing the point: the USA also has much larger financial and physical resources than those countries. We also have counterarguments: we have a universal electrical network. We built a large railroad network across the entire country. We have an interstate highway system reaching every continental state (and with “interstates” in Alaska and Hawaii as well, if I’m not mistaken). Also, universal telephone service. I live in the heart of Silicon Valley, and I can’t get cell reception at my house. I have basic broadband, but I can’t get fiber despite being on a street where other houses have it. I would be very interested in a comparison of what the citizens of each country have paid to fund internet service. US taxpayers have given the telecom mono/duopolies a ton of free money and right-of-way and the providers have broken every promise to provide universal service in exchange.

hunterb123 5y ago
Railroads, highways, and power/cable lines all go hand in hand. It's an amazing network and they were all built a long time ago with little improvement. The problem is shoveling money to other "universal" slush funds while ignoring actual infrastructure for decades. ISPs should have been a utility and they should treat it like Texas treats its grid. Have a company that manages the actual lines, and have multiple providers that can compete and sell data on it.
- arbitrage 5y ago
  > they should treat it like Texas treats its grid like garbage that falls apart when people actually need to use it? or like a regressive money funnel to line the pockets of an oligarchical captured regulatory body? texas' power grid is not a goal any serious advocate can advance as doing anything right.
  - hunterb123 5y ago
    If you're referring to the 100 year winter freeze, yes maybe it should have been winterized, and they are now, but that's not what I'm talking about. Maybe all California homes should have A/C for these heat waves. Sometimes it doesn't make sense economically. I'm talking about having a transmission provider and having ISPs compete on the same lines. It keeps prices down (unless you tricked into buying variable wholesale via startups like Griddy) and it keeps lines in good shape.
    - bradknowles 5y ago
      Uh, no. The Texas grid is not winterized now. They’ve pledged to start work thinking about doing something, sometime soon, maybe. That’s about as far as they’ve gotten.
  - vel0city 5y ago
    Texas' grid is the reason why 100% of the dollars I spend on electrical energy goes towards renewable energy sources at $0.084c/kWh for energy+transmission. What do you pay and what mix is renewable? Texas' grid also makes it incredibly easy for you to get your local solar/wind connected to the grid to sell your electricity back, further incentivizing local and renewable energy production. Finally, when Texas' grid has issues with big events which knocks out power, it captures national headlines for months on end. When California has blackouts, its just California being California. https://www.dailysignal.com/2021/06/25/blackouts-loom-in-california-as-electricity-prices-are-absolutely-exploding/ https://www.dailysignal.com/2021/06/25/blackouts-loom-in-cal... Maybe there's more states than just Texas having to deal with the effects of climate change.
    - mrguyorama 5y ago
      >Finally, when Texas' grid has issues with big events which knocks out power, it captures national headlines for months on end. When California has blackouts, its just California being California Meanwhile, the other 48 states, including a tiny island and a giant tundra wasteland larger than Texas have no problem keeping their power on in adverse weather.
      - vel0city 5y ago
        I have family in Michigan, Ohio, Kentucky, and other states. They've definitely lost power in major snowstorms before, sometimes for multiple days. I've lost power from hurricanes and other kinds of weather events elsewhere. Losing power from big weather events isn't an incredibly uncommon thing. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/weather/over-1-million-lose-power-midwest-after-rare-severe-wind-n1236363 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/weather/over-1-million-lose-pow... https://www.msn.com/en-us/weather/topstories/death-toll-rises-power-outages-remain-days-after-hurricane-ida/ar-AAO4Jss?ocid=uxbndlbing https://www.msn.com/en-us/weather/topstories/death-toll-rise... https://weather.com/storms/hurricane/news/2020-08-06-isaias-power-outages-restoration-new-york-new-jersey-connecticut https://weather.com/storms/hurricane/news/2020-08-06-isaias-... Were you really trying to suggest the other 48 states never lose power in extreme weather situations?
- 0xcde4c3db 5y ago
  Something like this was actually tried in the '90s for local phone circuits ("local loop unbundling"). As far as I know, it basically worked and is technically still policy, but the type of access mandated is no longer competitive for most purposes.
wyager 5y ago
> USA also has much larger financial and physical resources than those countries Certainly not on a per-capita basis, as far as Norway and Luxembourg are concerned.

hunterb123 5y ago

Railroads, highways, and power/cable lines all go hand in hand. It's an amazing network and they were all built a long time ago with little improvement. The problem is shoveling money to other "universal" slush funds while ignoring actual infrastructure for decades. ISPs should have been a utility and they should treat it like Texas treats its grid. Have a company that manages the actual lines, and have multiple providers that can compete and sell data on it.

arbitrage 5y ago
> they should treat it like Texas treats its grid like garbage that falls apart when people actually need to use it? or like a regressive money funnel to line the pockets of an oligarchical captured regulatory body? texas' power grid is not a goal any serious advocate can advance as doing anything right.
- hunterb123 5y ago
  If you're referring to the 100 year winter freeze, yes maybe it should have been winterized, and they are now, but that's not what I'm talking about. Maybe all California homes should have A/C for these heat waves. Sometimes it doesn't make sense economically. I'm talking about having a transmission provider and having ISPs compete on the same lines. It keeps prices down (unless you tricked into buying variable wholesale via startups like Griddy) and it keeps lines in good shape.
  - bradknowles 5y ago
    Uh, no. The Texas grid is not winterized now. They’ve pledged to start work thinking about doing something, sometime soon, maybe. That’s about as far as they’ve gotten.
- vel0city 5y ago
  Texas' grid is the reason why 100% of the dollars I spend on electrical energy goes towards renewable energy sources at $0.084c/kWh for energy+transmission. What do you pay and what mix is renewable? Texas' grid also makes it incredibly easy for you to get your local solar/wind connected to the grid to sell your electricity back, further incentivizing local and renewable energy production. Finally, when Texas' grid has issues with big events which knocks out power, it captures national headlines for months on end. When California has blackouts, its just California being California. https://www.dailysignal.com/2021/06/25/blackouts-loom-in-california-as-electricity-prices-are-absolutely-exploding/ https://www.dailysignal.com/2021/06/25/blackouts-loom-in-cal... Maybe there's more states than just Texas having to deal with the effects of climate change.
  - mrguyorama 5y ago
    >Finally, when Texas' grid has issues with big events which knocks out power, it captures national headlines for months on end. When California has blackouts, its just California being California Meanwhile, the other 48 states, including a tiny island and a giant tundra wasteland larger than Texas have no problem keeping their power on in adverse weather.
    - vel0city 5y ago
      I have family in Michigan, Ohio, Kentucky, and other states. They've definitely lost power in major snowstorms before, sometimes for multiple days. I've lost power from hurricanes and other kinds of weather events elsewhere. Losing power from big weather events isn't an incredibly uncommon thing. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/weather/over-1-million-lose-power-midwest-after-rare-severe-wind-n1236363 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/weather/over-1-million-lose-pow... https://www.msn.com/en-us/weather/topstories/death-toll-rises-power-outages-remain-days-after-hurricane-ida/ar-AAO4Jss?ocid=uxbndlbing https://www.msn.com/en-us/weather/topstories/death-toll-rise... https://weather.com/storms/hurricane/news/2020-08-06-isaias-power-outages-restoration-new-york-new-jersey-connecticut https://weather.com/storms/hurricane/news/2020-08-06-isaias-... Were you really trying to suggest the other 48 states never lose power in extreme weather situations?
0xcde4c3db 5y ago
Something like this was actually tried in the '90s for local phone circuits ("local loop unbundling"). As far as I know, it basically worked and is technically still policy, but the type of access mandated is no longer competitive for most purposes.

wyager 5y ago

> USA also has much larger financial and physical resources than those countries Certainly not on a per-capita basis, as far as Norway and Luxembourg are concerned.