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Hot take: why do we still care? Linus says something negative about something, big shocker. This is just the tech crowd equivalent of a tabloid at the supermar

Hot take: why do we still care? Linus says something negative about something, big shocker. This is just the tech crowd equivalent of a tabloid at the supermarket checkout isle, Tom Cruise is secretly a ferret-lover, read all about Bob’s torrid affair with Mallory!

lopatin 5y ago
Because it's fun
chrisseaton 5y ago
That's the biggest thing to learn from bullies like Linus - he hates everything and thinks everyone's an idiot, so where does he go when he actually needs to express something strongly? He can't go anywhere. It's not an effective way to communicate.
- temp8964 5y ago
  Exactly. Linux became successful only after Linus was re-educated.
  - chrisseaton 5y ago
    You're being snarky, but that's not even what I said anyway. You can still be successful even if your communication is limited.
  - nixpulvis 5y ago
    Please fuck right off with this.
- Dylan16807 5y ago
  > That's the biggest thing to learn from bullies like Linus - he hates everything and thinks everyone's an idiot, so where does he go when he actually needs to express something strongly? When he has a list of complaints, that is his strong reaction. And why would he need to go stronger?
  - chrisseaton 5y ago
    > And why would he need to go stronger? If he uses his strongest reaction for normal work-day issues like drivers and interface design, where does he go for any potential existential community issues we face in the future? If something comes up that threatens the future of Linux, and he swears and threatens as usual while trying to warn people about it, nobody will care because 'ah yeah that's just normal Linus'.
    - Dylan16807 5y ago
      Does he threaten people? And the people that aren't just bystanders will read the thing he says, he doesn't need to punch it up to attract a crowd.
      - chrisseaton 5y ago
        > Does he threaten people? He uses personal abuse against people. Not sure that counts as 'threatening'. Really we should always challenge any kind of abuse.
        Dylan16807 5y ago
        When that happens it is bad, yes. But you're also arguing that he needs to be able to get scarier when necessary, which is a weird thing to argue at the same time?
        chrisseaton 5y ago
        > But you're also arguing that he needs to be able to get scarier No I'm not. The opposite. If the only tool you know how to use is abuse, then when you need more all you can do is abuse more and more, to the point where you are literally encouraging people to kill themselves. If you learn other tools you can use them instead when needed and they have an impact. If I heard Mister Rogers say something was extremely serious I’d stop and listen because he’s a calm and reasonable person. If I heard Linus telling another person to kill themselves I’d think it was him being terrible again but I wouldn’t take notice of what he’s trying to say because he uses that kind of abuse for minor things anyway.
- 6510 5y ago
  I wouldn't dare say we should go back to it but it is how many use to communicate long ago. The mechanism is simple, if you deliver anything yourself you must live up to your own expectations. The louder you moan about everything the more harshly we should examine your stuff. You cant complaint when people ridicule or critique your software if you do it yourself all the time: You've openly invited it! And yeah, it was more effective. You just have to remember the topic is your code not your person - they are 2 entirely different things. i.e. Brendan Eich is a wizard but javascript started out as a smoking pile of shit. In The graphing calculator story Ron Avitzur mentioned the other devs saying "It doesn't even suck" which was the highest possible praise.
  - chrisseaton 5y ago
    > You just have to remember the topic is your code not your person No he definitely attacks people's person. "You're a moron." https://github.com/torvalds/linux/pull/17#issuecomment-5659970 https://github.com/torvalds/linux/pull/17#issuecomment-56599...
    - 6510 5y ago
      heh, then he is just a grumpy dick
Zababa 5y ago
I think it's another proof that he has improved. Sure he uses strong language against the problem, but he's clear with what's wrong and why, and how to improve it.
TameAntelope 5y ago
My concern is that tomorrow, I'll have to deal with one of the junior devs bringing up Linus Torvalds' comment as the starting point for a suggestion we leave GitHub, which ends up being a lot of work for no material gain for my org. Torvalds isn't wrong, and I'm almost certain he didn't mean, "...and therefore everyone should quit GitHub immediately." but people will interpret it that way. And on the off chance he did mean for everyone to quit GitHub, he's then ignoring a cornucopia of value that GitHub provides unrelated to his expertise as the creator of git, which I don't think he's arrogant enough to do, anymore.
- easton 5y ago
  Then you point at the line before his statement that says “GitHub does a lot of things well…”, and say that you use the tool that best fits your development process, which is GitHub. The kernel uses a different development process which requires all of the information about a change to come from the commit message, making GitHub’s merge messages which rely on having access to other tools besides Git useless.
- 908B64B197 5y ago
  > I'll have to deal with one of the junior devs bringing up Linus Torvalds' comment as the starting point for a suggestion we leave GitHub If he can roll out a kernel and distributed version control system, listen to him. Otherwise, it's time to have the talk about cargo culting.
- dogleash 5y ago
  >My concern is that tomorrow, I'll have to deal with one of the junior devs bringing up Linus Torvalds' comment as the starting point for a suggestion we leave GitHub What would you rather see? That he just avoid expressing any opinion that might make people question your status-quo? Muddy his own message by weighing down his emails with hedging and qualifying statements that are - at best - superfluous to his target audience? I'd love it if one of my juniors was tuned in enough to read this and realize there is more to git than github. And maybe they even start learning how to use that tool beyond the lowest common denominator of git knowledge that most people skate by with. Of course it might mean steering them away from a rash decisions like misinterpreting this email, or wanting to leave github just because someone pointed out it wasn't perfect. But that's what makes them junior. It's my job to make them better than that. >which ends up being a lot of work for no material gain for my org. If you would just paternalistically tell them no, or would give a mentoring answer but don't see the value in that, then there is a workplace problem to address. Either you're hiring too junior for what you're willing to support on the team, or you need to reconsider your role within the team.
lr4444lr 5y ago
Because he has the street cred to not be diplomatic or political about an opinion. Agree with him or not, he conveys an idea about tech that draws from an incredible intuition and experience, each building on the next and showing an evolution of his thought. He doesn't worry about being "cancelled" and obscure down things with defensive caveats, or being shunned for liking some unpopular concept.
- Sharlin 5y ago
  He also friggin’ wrote git. If there’s anything he’s allowed to have strong opinions on, it’s git (and Linux, obviously).
heisenbit 5y ago
Architects shape often by saying no and the architecture of Linux and it‘s ecosystem is paramount to the tech industry. So we listen to when Linus loudly says no…
yoavm 5y ago
If the news were that Linus was ferret-lover, no one would care. But Linus knows a thing or two about managing the Git workflow of a pretty large project, and he created Git, so I'd give him some (a lot of) credit.
Arisaka1 5y ago
It blows my mind how one of the most influential software engineers, creator of linux and git, is reduced to "just a famous person like Tom Cruise who constantly negative" as if he's actually enjoying it or worse, that we shouldn't take what he has to share into consideration because he's used to express his viewpoint. Maybe Torvalds is just as positive as he is negative and the whole reason why you think that he's someone who's "unsurprisingly negative" is because that's the content that everyone is passing around. If this was just another of his normal comments you wouldn't even see it posted.

lopatin 5y ago

Because it's fun

chrisseaton 5y ago

That's the biggest thing to learn from bullies like Linus - he hates everything and thinks everyone's an idiot, so where does he go when he actually needs to express something strongly? He can't go anywhere. It's not an effective way to communicate.

temp8964 5y ago
Exactly. Linux became successful only after Linus was re-educated.
- chrisseaton 5y ago
  You're being snarky, but that's not even what I said anyway. You can still be successful even if your communication is limited.
- nixpulvis 5y ago
  Please fuck right off with this.
Dylan16807 5y ago
> That's the biggest thing to learn from bullies like Linus - he hates everything and thinks everyone's an idiot, so where does he go when he actually needs to express something strongly? When he has a list of complaints, that is his strong reaction. And why would he need to go stronger?
- chrisseaton 5y ago
  > And why would he need to go stronger? If he uses his strongest reaction for normal work-day issues like drivers and interface design, where does he go for any potential existential community issues we face in the future? If something comes up that threatens the future of Linux, and he swears and threatens as usual while trying to warn people about it, nobody will care because 'ah yeah that's just normal Linus'.
  - Dylan16807 5y ago
    Does he threaten people? And the people that aren't just bystanders will read the thing he says, he doesn't need to punch it up to attract a crowd.
    - chrisseaton 5y ago
      > Does he threaten people? He uses personal abuse against people. Not sure that counts as 'threatening'. Really we should always challenge any kind of abuse.
      - Dylan16807 5y ago
        When that happens it is bad, yes. But you're also arguing that he needs to be able to get scarier when necessary, which is a weird thing to argue at the same time?
        chrisseaton 5y ago
        > But you're also arguing that he needs to be able to get scarier No I'm not. The opposite. If the only tool you know how to use is abuse, then when you need more all you can do is abuse more and more, to the point where you are literally encouraging people to kill themselves. If you learn other tools you can use them instead when needed and they have an impact. If I heard Mister Rogers say something was extremely serious I’d stop and listen because he’s a calm and reasonable person. If I heard Linus telling another person to kill themselves I’d think it was him being terrible again but I wouldn’t take notice of what he’s trying to say because he uses that kind of abuse for minor things anyway.
6510 5y ago
I wouldn't dare say we should go back to it but it is how many use to communicate long ago. The mechanism is simple, if you deliver anything yourself you must live up to your own expectations. The louder you moan about everything the more harshly we should examine your stuff. You cant complaint when people ridicule or critique your software if you do it yourself all the time: You've openly invited it! And yeah, it was more effective. You just have to remember the topic is your code not your person - they are 2 entirely different things. i.e. Brendan Eich is a wizard but javascript started out as a smoking pile of shit. In The graphing calculator story Ron Avitzur mentioned the other devs saying "It doesn't even suck" which was the highest possible praise.
- chrisseaton 5y ago
  > You just have to remember the topic is your code not your person No he definitely attacks people's person. "You're a moron." https://github.com/torvalds/linux/pull/17#issuecomment-5659970 https://github.com/torvalds/linux/pull/17#issuecomment-56599...
  - 6510 5y ago
    heh, then he is just a grumpy dick

Zababa 5y ago

I think it's another proof that he has improved. Sure he uses strong language against the problem, but he's clear with what's wrong and why, and how to improve it.

TameAntelope 5y ago

My concern is that tomorrow, I'll have to deal with one of the junior devs bringing up Linus Torvalds' comment as the starting point for a suggestion we leave GitHub, which ends up being a lot of work for no material gain for my org. Torvalds isn't wrong, and I'm almost certain he didn't mean, "...and therefore everyone should quit GitHub immediately." but people will interpret it that way. And on the off chance he did mean for everyone to quit GitHub, he's then ignoring a cornucopia of value that GitHub provides unrelated to his expertise as the creator of git, which I don't think he's arrogant enough to do, anymore.

easton 5y ago
Then you point at the line before his statement that says “GitHub does a lot of things well…”, and say that you use the tool that best fits your development process, which is GitHub. The kernel uses a different development process which requires all of the information about a change to come from the commit message, making GitHub’s merge messages which rely on having access to other tools besides Git useless.
908B64B197 5y ago
> I'll have to deal with one of the junior devs bringing up Linus Torvalds' comment as the starting point for a suggestion we leave GitHub If he can roll out a kernel and distributed version control system, listen to him. Otherwise, it's time to have the talk about cargo culting.
dogleash 5y ago
>My concern is that tomorrow, I'll have to deal with one of the junior devs bringing up Linus Torvalds' comment as the starting point for a suggestion we leave GitHub What would you rather see? That he just avoid expressing any opinion that might make people question your status-quo? Muddy his own message by weighing down his emails with hedging and qualifying statements that are - at best - superfluous to his target audience? I'd love it if one of my juniors was tuned in enough to read this and realize there is more to git than github. And maybe they even start learning how to use that tool beyond the lowest common denominator of git knowledge that most people skate by with. Of course it might mean steering them away from a rash decisions like misinterpreting this email, or wanting to leave github just because someone pointed out it wasn't perfect. But that's what makes them junior. It's my job to make them better than that. >which ends up being a lot of work for no material gain for my org. If you would just paternalistically tell them no, or would give a mentoring answer but don't see the value in that, then there is a workplace problem to address. Either you're hiring too junior for what you're willing to support on the team, or you need to reconsider your role within the team.

lr4444lr 5y ago

Because he has the street cred to not be diplomatic or political about an opinion. Agree with him or not, he conveys an idea about tech that draws from an incredible intuition and experience, each building on the next and showing an evolution of his thought. He doesn't worry about being "cancelled" and obscure down things with defensive caveats, or being shunned for liking some unpopular concept.

Sharlin 5y ago
He also friggin’ wrote git. If there’s anything he’s allowed to have strong opinions on, it’s git (and Linux, obviously).

heisenbit 5y ago

Architects shape often by saying no and the architecture of Linux and it‘s ecosystem is paramount to the tech industry. So we listen to when Linus loudly says no…

yoavm 5y ago

If the news were that Linus was ferret-lover, no one would care. But Linus knows a thing or two about managing the Git workflow of a pretty large project, and he created Git, so I'd give him some (a lot of) credit.

Arisaka1 5y ago

It blows my mind how one of the most influential software engineers, creator of linux and git, is reduced to "just a famous person like Tom Cruise who constantly negative" as if he's actually enjoying it or worse, that we shouldn't take what he has to share into consideration because he's used to express his viewpoint. Maybe Torvalds is just as positive as he is negative and the whole reason why you think that he's someone who's "unsurprisingly negative" is because that's the content that everyone is passing around. If this was just another of his normal comments you wouldn't even see it posted.