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Finally, something that outright says that its intent is to be a discord alternative. So many platforms try to sell themselves on some other feature, rather tha

Finally, something that outright says that its intent is to be a discord alternative. So many platforms try to sell themselves on some other feature, rather than just being open source and self-hostable. So many things, like Matrix, come close, but lack key components to really competing, such as voice channels rather than calls. I hope this goes somewhere!

Arathorn 5y ago
The whole "matrix doesn't have voice channels" thing is a bit frustrating, because... in Element, you can hit the voice or video call button in any channel (not just voice channels!) and it will spin up a voice/video conference in that channel. If you then switch channel, you'll stay in the original conference, unless you drop and rejoin the new one. I think that's basically precisely the same capability as you get in Discord - except in Discord you can switch between the 'voice rooms' by clicking on them in the room list, rather than 'opting in' to the one in your current room. Also, you can do toggle mute via hotkey (which we have a draft for at https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-react-sdk/pull/2280 https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-react-sdk/pull/2280), but this is surely a bonus feature. So, am I right in saying that Element effectively has voice/video rooms today - it's just that the UI is very subtly different to Discord? Or am I completely misunderstanding something fundamental about Discord's voice rooms?
- meibo 5y ago
  The difference is that Discord voice chats work like "meeting rooms". I don't want to call everyone in a channel, I want to see who's already hanging around and join them on a whim. It's not really "calls" per se as you don't actually call anyone and they're not coupled to actual text conversation channels. That's the big UX difference, and it's a big deal for gaming and more casual communities with many participants.
  - lavabiopsy 5y ago
    I haven't used Discord or Matrix in a while so please forgive me if I have this wrong, but just reading this comment and the parent comment, the only difference there seems to be that the Matrix voice room can (optionally) be coupled to a text chat room, whereas Discord cannot do this, and the voice chat rooms there are always separate. That actually seems like Discord is doing worse here, if you were aiming for maximum flexibility. (Maybe you aren't, I don't know)
    - errantspark 5y ago
      The UX of just being able to naturally sit idling in a voice chat and have friends drop in at will is the point of discord and it's done very well. This user interaction being a first-class citizen is a big deal. Maybe alien to some people, but I've spend the last 17 years of my life hanging out in Xfire/Teamspeak/Vent/Mumble/Discord and I think it's one of the absolute best things that tech has been able to give us, just constantly being in a room with all your friends.
      - lavabiopsy 5y ago
        I don't understand, is there some reason you cannot idle in a Matrix room? Again I don't know, but for the sake of discussion it would be good to mention that.
        trulyme 5y ago
        Not GP, but Discord user too. UX matters. People are very sensitive to the context of features, what the subtle meaning of using them is, how we initiate the communication and how it all "feels" like, for lack of a better word. Kind of like there is no difference between (s)ftp and dropbox, and yet there is.
        lavabiopsy 5y ago
        Ok but just for me as an observer, it's not clear what the actual UX difference here is. The discussion seems to suggest that the actual capability of the UX is in fact worse in Discord, and maybe not worth copying exactly if it causes a feature regression. It would help to specify exactly what you would like changed around, i.e. if there is a button that could change to make it more clear what is happening when you join a voice room, or something like that. It could turn out that this could just be a matter of some small cosmetic changes.
  - e12e 5y ago
    It really is the difference between channels and rooms, as in visiting rooms or tuning to a frequency to join a radio channel. It feels very different? And the use-cases are different.
    - Arathorn 5y ago
      Thanks all for the responses - the whole “matrix doesn’t have voice channels” thing is much clearer now: it’s not the hard bit (voice/video conferencing!) but just the UX of how it’s hooked up. This we can fix :)
      - iamstupidsimple 5y ago
        Good to know you guys are listening, but I'll dispute that UX isn't hard! I think Matrix/Element is great but open source projects at large are let down by UX/UI issues more than anything.
      - xfalcox 5y ago
        That's great to hear that you are open to addressing this UX feature. Being able to hang out in a room alone to signal that you are open to chat if someone wants to join makes for a completely different user journey from calling someone and interrupting your interlocutor.
      - preya2k 5y ago
        "it's not the hard bit but just the UX" – I think this is not a good statement. Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but it shows a certain state of mind: Tech/protocol/crypto/algorithms are hard, but UX is just decor and easy. That's just wrong. For many users, UX is way more important than Key Backups and Cross signing of devices. If FOSS projects want to be an alternative to Slack/Discord, then these things are precisely what matters – a lot.
        Yoric 5y ago
        Well, tech/protocol/crypto/algorithms require changes to all servers involved. UX is something that can be deployed and iterated upon much more easily. That makes it the "easy bit", for some definition of easy.
- stryan 5y ago
  > Also, you can do toggle mute via hotkey (which we have a draft for at https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-react-sdk/pull/2280 https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-react-sdk/pull/2280), but this is surely a bonus feature. Proper Push-To-Talk with global hotkey is one of those features that doesn't seem important but when you need it (organizing Raids in games, big meetings, etc) it makes a world of difference. That and lack of click to join voice rooms is definitely making it harder to move gaming groups over.
- mikenew 5y ago
  > the UI is very subtly different to Discord? I use Discord and Element/Matrix exclusively, and have groups of friends that use both. They always gravitate towards Discord for voice. I think there's a couple small reasons that kind of add up 1. When there's an active call going, you can't see who's in it unless you join. It's just this ominous box with some unknown number of participants, and it creates this feeling of "should I join them? Am I interrupting? What's going on in there?". In discord, being able to see who's in a room and even who's talking goes a long way in removing that little anxiety. 2. As others have said, having the voice channels listed as their own room, showing the current participants, that you just one-click-to-join feels different. For whatever reason it feels less like you're joining a conference call and more like you're just popping in and out. I can't fully explain why, but it does. 3. The jisti widget is pretty janky. It doesn't really size correctly, the text overflows, and it general it just doesn't feel native. I've been using, self hosting, developing for and prosthelytizing Matrix for many years now. It started out rough, has steadily gotten better, and now I think in many ways surpasses other chat services. But the voice just doesn't quite do it.
  - jelv 5y ago
    This
  - thayne 5y ago
    Those all seem like things that could be fixed at a lower cost than creating a whole new app, but maybe there is some technical reason I'm not familiar with
    - ddtaylor 5y ago
      I think the problem is that Matrix has a different scope than being a Discord alternative. It's a protocol and designed to do more complex things like creating federated networks or bridging IRC networks, etc.
- simonh 5y ago
  >Also, you can do toggle mute via hotkey (which we have a draft for at https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-react-sdk/pull/2280 https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-react-sdk/pull/2280), but this is surely a bonus feature. It's an absolute must have for gaming. Near useless without it. I suspect some of the other features that are 'almost there' in fact are deal breakers in some use cases.
- gsich 5y ago
  The workflow and "feeling" is not the same.
- lawl 5y ago
  > Or am I completely misunderstanding something fundamental about Discord's voice rooms? I think you are. Think back to messengers like ICQ or MSN, they had a group chat feature. It's like comparing that to IRC. I personally use a separate mumble (and a teamspeak) server, instead of discord.
Rd6n6 5y ago
The real reason so many people use discord is the network effects. My friends and I joined discord really late in the game but for various reasons we eventually needed it. Eg, game development discussion groups and eventual marketing, or your weekly dnd group uses it, school, etc I hope this succeeds but it’s going to be hard to take market share. I hope the signup flows and Ux are really smooth, foss software is often pretty hard to get started with for non technical people
saladuh 5y ago
Just wanted to point out that Matrix is getting native voice/video calls (for multi people, it already works with 1:1 calls) soon, as well as voice rooms (they've already been designed and the design shown off, just not implemented yet).
grappler 5y ago
The subject line of this hacker news story says that's the intent. I just found 0 occurrences of the string 'discord' on the linked homepage and also its main github repo page. Is the project actually claiming that's its intent?

Arathorn 5y ago

The whole "matrix doesn't have voice channels" thing is a bit frustrating, because... in Element, you can hit the voice or video call button in any channel (not just voice channels!) and it will spin up a voice/video conference in that channel. If you then switch channel, you'll stay in the original conference, unless you drop and rejoin the new one. I think that's basically precisely the same capability as you get in Discord - except in Discord you can switch between the 'voice rooms' by clicking on them in the room list, rather than 'opting in' to the one in your current room. Also, you can do toggle mute via hotkey (which we have a draft for at https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-react-sdk/pull/2280 https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-react-sdk/pull/2280), but this is surely a bonus feature. So, am I right in saying that Element effectively has voice/video rooms today - it's just that the UI is very subtly different to Discord? Or am I completely misunderstanding something fundamental about Discord's voice rooms?

meibo 5y ago
The difference is that Discord voice chats work like "meeting rooms". I don't want to call everyone in a channel, I want to see who's already hanging around and join them on a whim. It's not really "calls" per se as you don't actually call anyone and they're not coupled to actual text conversation channels. That's the big UX difference, and it's a big deal for gaming and more casual communities with many participants.
- lavabiopsy 5y ago
  I haven't used Discord or Matrix in a while so please forgive me if I have this wrong, but just reading this comment and the parent comment, the only difference there seems to be that the Matrix voice room can (optionally) be coupled to a text chat room, whereas Discord cannot do this, and the voice chat rooms there are always separate. That actually seems like Discord is doing worse here, if you were aiming for maximum flexibility. (Maybe you aren't, I don't know)
  - errantspark 5y ago
    The UX of just being able to naturally sit idling in a voice chat and have friends drop in at will is the point of discord and it's done very well. This user interaction being a first-class citizen is a big deal. Maybe alien to some people, but I've spend the last 17 years of my life hanging out in Xfire/Teamspeak/Vent/Mumble/Discord and I think it's one of the absolute best things that tech has been able to give us, just constantly being in a room with all your friends.
    - lavabiopsy 5y ago
      I don't understand, is there some reason you cannot idle in a Matrix room? Again I don't know, but for the sake of discussion it would be good to mention that.
      - trulyme 5y ago
        Not GP, but Discord user too. UX matters. People are very sensitive to the context of features, what the subtle meaning of using them is, how we initiate the communication and how it all "feels" like, for lack of a better word. Kind of like there is no difference between (s)ftp and dropbox, and yet there is.
        lavabiopsy 5y ago
        Ok but just for me as an observer, it's not clear what the actual UX difference here is. The discussion seems to suggest that the actual capability of the UX is in fact worse in Discord, and maybe not worth copying exactly if it causes a feature regression. It would help to specify exactly what you would like changed around, i.e. if there is a button that could change to make it more clear what is happening when you join a voice room, or something like that. It could turn out that this could just be a matter of some small cosmetic changes.
- e12e 5y ago
  It really is the difference between channels and rooms, as in visiting rooms or tuning to a frequency to join a radio channel. It feels very different? And the use-cases are different.
  - Arathorn 5y ago
    Thanks all for the responses - the whole “matrix doesn’t have voice channels” thing is much clearer now: it’s not the hard bit (voice/video conferencing!) but just the UX of how it’s hooked up. This we can fix :)
    - iamstupidsimple 5y ago
      Good to know you guys are listening, but I'll dispute that UX isn't hard! I think Matrix/Element is great but open source projects at large are let down by UX/UI issues more than anything.
    - xfalcox 5y ago
      That's great to hear that you are open to addressing this UX feature. Being able to hang out in a room alone to signal that you are open to chat if someone wants to join makes for a completely different user journey from calling someone and interrupting your interlocutor.
    - preya2k 5y ago
      "it's not the hard bit but just the UX" – I think this is not a good statement. Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but it shows a certain state of mind: Tech/protocol/crypto/algorithms are hard, but UX is just decor and easy. That's just wrong. For many users, UX is way more important than Key Backups and Cross signing of devices. If FOSS projects want to be an alternative to Slack/Discord, then these things are precisely what matters – a lot.
      - Yoric 5y ago
        Well, tech/protocol/crypto/algorithms require changes to all servers involved. UX is something that can be deployed and iterated upon much more easily. That makes it the "easy bit", for some definition of easy.
stryan 5y ago
> Also, you can do toggle mute via hotkey (which we have a draft for at https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-react-sdk/pull/2280 https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-react-sdk/pull/2280), but this is surely a bonus feature. Proper Push-To-Talk with global hotkey is one of those features that doesn't seem important but when you need it (organizing Raids in games, big meetings, etc) it makes a world of difference. That and lack of click to join voice rooms is definitely making it harder to move gaming groups over.
mikenew 5y ago
> the UI is very subtly different to Discord? I use Discord and Element/Matrix exclusively, and have groups of friends that use both. They always gravitate towards Discord for voice. I think there's a couple small reasons that kind of add up 1. When there's an active call going, you can't see who's in it unless you join. It's just this ominous box with some unknown number of participants, and it creates this feeling of "should I join them? Am I interrupting? What's going on in there?". In discord, being able to see who's in a room and even who's talking goes a long way in removing that little anxiety. 2. As others have said, having the voice channels listed as their own room, showing the current participants, that you just one-click-to-join feels different. For whatever reason it feels less like you're joining a conference call and more like you're just popping in and out. I can't fully explain why, but it does. 3. The jisti widget is pretty janky. It doesn't really size correctly, the text overflows, and it general it just doesn't feel native. I've been using, self hosting, developing for and prosthelytizing Matrix for many years now. It started out rough, has steadily gotten better, and now I think in many ways surpasses other chat services. But the voice just doesn't quite do it.
- jelv 5y ago
  This
- thayne 5y ago
  Those all seem like things that could be fixed at a lower cost than creating a whole new app, but maybe there is some technical reason I'm not familiar with
  - ddtaylor 5y ago
    I think the problem is that Matrix has a different scope than being a Discord alternative. It's a protocol and designed to do more complex things like creating federated networks or bridging IRC networks, etc.
simonh 5y ago
>Also, you can do toggle mute via hotkey (which we have a draft for at https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-react-sdk/pull/2280 https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-react-sdk/pull/2280), but this is surely a bonus feature. It's an absolute must have for gaming. Near useless without it. I suspect some of the other features that are 'almost there' in fact are deal breakers in some use cases.
gsich 5y ago
The workflow and "feeling" is not the same.
lawl 5y ago
> Or am I completely misunderstanding something fundamental about Discord's voice rooms? I think you are. Think back to messengers like ICQ or MSN, they had a group chat feature. It's like comparing that to IRC. I personally use a separate mumble (and a teamspeak) server, instead of discord.

Rd6n6 5y ago

The real reason so many people use discord is the network effects. My friends and I joined discord really late in the game but for various reasons we eventually needed it. Eg, game development discussion groups and eventual marketing, or your weekly dnd group uses it, school, etc I hope this succeeds but it’s going to be hard to take market share. I hope the signup flows and Ux are really smooth, foss software is often pretty hard to get started with for non technical people

saladuh 5y ago

Just wanted to point out that Matrix is getting native voice/video calls (for multi people, it already works with 1:1 calls) soon, as well as voice rooms (they've already been designed and the design shown off, just not implemented yet).

grappler 5y ago

The subject line of this hacker news story says that's the intent. I just found 0 occurrences of the string 'discord' on the linked homepage and also its main github repo page. Is the project actually claiming that's its intent?