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Conservatives currently out reproduce liberals for whatever reason, for example: https://ifstudies.org/blog/the-conservative-fertility-advantage https://ifstud

Conservatives currently out reproduce liberals for whatever reason, for example: https://ifstudies.org/blog/the-conservative-fertility-advantage https://ifstudies.org/blog/the-conservative-fertility-advant... I wonder if it is purely cultural or is there a genetic component? If there is low fertility because of a genetic component, that is likely going to targeted hard by evolution now. (Will evolution select against women getting higher education like Masters or PhD? Because that is one of the biggest predictors of reduced fertility.) What does this mean for liberal views? Are they destined to become more conservative over time if there is a genetic component which is being selected against? So interesting. I wish we could track genetic changes along with political changes over time. I bet there is more happening there than we think. EDIT: Here is a large meta analysis paper that seems to indicate that genetics influences political ideology: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4038932/pdf/nihms-570512.pdf https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4038932/pdf/nih...

kaesar14 5y ago
Conservatives live in less expensive areas and often have less wealth, two things that often drive reproduction rates up higher. I feel comfortable Occam’s Razoring that up as the explanation
knubie 5y ago
Conservative parents don't necessarily produce conservative children.
- neverywhere 5y ago
  But papers do indicate that there is a genetic component to political ideology: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4038932/pdf/nihms-570512.pdf https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4038932/pdf/nih... Your argument is akin to a global warming denier saying that yeah, but some days are still cold. Yes, there will always be variation.
  - knubie 5y ago
    That's not really analogous. I'm just pointing out that there is an underlying assumption in your argument that may or may not be true.
gbrown 5y ago
X -> doubt Education is correlated with both low birth rates and liberal political views, and culture surrounding politics and reproduction changes a lot faster than population genetics.
everdrive 5y ago
>(Will evolution select against women getting higher education like Masters or PhD? Because that is one of the biggest predictors of reduced fertility.) Generally speaking evolution does not work on these time scales. Importantly, there is nothing that would make someone "genetically liberal" or "genetically conservative." You might be able to point to higher order traits which may indicate someone being conservative vs. liberal. ie, openness to experience, religiosity, etc. But, it's not clear that these traits are static throughout a lifetime. (eg, "openness to experience" is generally much higher in the young than the old.) Furthermore, the idea of what it means to be "liberal" or "conservative" changes over time as well. Someone describing themselves as "liberal" in 1950 wouldn't bear much resemblance to someone describing themselves as liberal in 2021. According to historians, the conservative movement as we understand it really only began in the 1950s, and prior to that people would not have described themselves as either "liberal or conservative." (and in fact, "liberal" was not previously synonymous with "left," and therefore many people on the "right" would have previously described themselves as liberal. The point is that political movements have short life spans. Perhaps in the tens or hundreds of years, which is not nearly enough for evolution to make any meaningful impact.
- neverywhere 5y ago
  Religions have a longer time span and correlate with conservatives. Many religions actually shed their members who have liberal views. Thus religions tend to conserve conservatives leaning individuals. So if religion was not part of the conservative-liberal divide I would buy your argument but it is part of it and it is long running.
  - everdrive 5y ago
    200 years ago nearly the entire country was Christian, but the entire country did not hold the same political beliefs. Protestant vs. Catholic may have been a more pressing divide back then. And how would your argument fare in say ... 2,000-4,000 BC middle east? Each city has its own deity, perhaps part of a pantheon, perhaps not? Are the followers of Chemosh more or less conservative than the followers of Anat? Who are the irreligious liberals in this time period?
woodruffw 5y ago
We cannot afford a mine shaft gap! But more seriously: the furthest left people I know are the ones who grew up around conservatives, particularly in privation (usually one of the strongest signals for high birth rates). These things have a tendency to balance each other by nurture; assuming that people are genetically predestined to be conservative (or liberal) is both silly and incompatible with our observed history as communal animals.
- neverywhere 5y ago
  > assuming that people are genetically predestined to be conservative (or liberal) is both silly and incompatible But there is evidence of that. I linked to some of these papers in my previous comments.
  - woodruffw 5y ago
    > But there is evidence of that. I linked to some of these papers in my previous comments. The IFS is not a credible source. Their previous claim to fame was publishing bogus research on same-sex parenting, presumably because it doesn't align with their values[1]. The other link is a meta-analysis that shows a correlation between family political alignments (quelle surprise!). It doesn't support the more ridiculous claim that the arc of human reproduction bends towards conservativism. [1]: https://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php/Institute_for_Family_Studies https://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php/Institute_for_Family_S...

kaesar14 5y ago

Conservatives live in less expensive areas and often have less wealth, two things that often drive reproduction rates up higher. I feel comfortable Occam’s Razoring that up as the explanation

knubie 5y ago

Conservative parents don't necessarily produce conservative children.

neverywhere 5y ago
But papers do indicate that there is a genetic component to political ideology: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4038932/pdf/nihms-570512.pdf https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4038932/pdf/nih... Your argument is akin to a global warming denier saying that yeah, but some days are still cold. Yes, there will always be variation.
- knubie 5y ago
  That's not really analogous. I'm just pointing out that there is an underlying assumption in your argument that may or may not be true.

gbrown 5y ago

X -> doubt Education is correlated with both low birth rates and liberal political views, and culture surrounding politics and reproduction changes a lot faster than population genetics.

everdrive 5y ago

>(Will evolution select against women getting higher education like Masters or PhD? Because that is one of the biggest predictors of reduced fertility.) Generally speaking evolution does not work on these time scales. Importantly, there is nothing that would make someone "genetically liberal" or "genetically conservative." You might be able to point to higher order traits which may indicate someone being conservative vs. liberal. ie, openness to experience, religiosity, etc. But, it's not clear that these traits are static throughout a lifetime. (eg, "openness to experience" is generally much higher in the young than the old.) Furthermore, the idea of what it means to be "liberal" or "conservative" changes over time as well. Someone describing themselves as "liberal" in 1950 wouldn't bear much resemblance to someone describing themselves as liberal in 2021. According to historians, the conservative movement as we understand it really only began in the 1950s, and prior to that people would not have described themselves as either "liberal or conservative." (and in fact, "liberal" was not previously synonymous with "left," and therefore many people on the "right" would have previously described themselves as liberal. The point is that political movements have short life spans. Perhaps in the tens or hundreds of years, which is not nearly enough for evolution to make any meaningful impact.

neverywhere 5y ago
Religions have a longer time span and correlate with conservatives. Many religions actually shed their members who have liberal views. Thus religions tend to conserve conservatives leaning individuals. So if religion was not part of the conservative-liberal divide I would buy your argument but it is part of it and it is long running.
- everdrive 5y ago
  200 years ago nearly the entire country was Christian, but the entire country did not hold the same political beliefs. Protestant vs. Catholic may have been a more pressing divide back then. And how would your argument fare in say ... 2,000-4,000 BC middle east? Each city has its own deity, perhaps part of a pantheon, perhaps not? Are the followers of Chemosh more or less conservative than the followers of Anat? Who are the irreligious liberals in this time period?

woodruffw 5y ago

We cannot afford a mine shaft gap! But more seriously: the furthest left people I know are the ones who grew up around conservatives, particularly in privation (usually one of the strongest signals for high birth rates). These things have a tendency to balance each other by nurture; assuming that people are genetically predestined to be conservative (or liberal) is both silly and incompatible with our observed history as communal animals.

neverywhere 5y ago
> assuming that people are genetically predestined to be conservative (or liberal) is both silly and incompatible But there is evidence of that. I linked to some of these papers in my previous comments.
- woodruffw 5y ago
  > But there is evidence of that. I linked to some of these papers in my previous comments. The IFS is not a credible source. Their previous claim to fame was publishing bogus research on same-sex parenting, presumably because it doesn't align with their values[1]. The other link is a meta-analysis that shows a correlation between family political alignments (quelle surprise!). It doesn't support the more ridiculous claim that the arc of human reproduction bends towards conservativism. [1]: https://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php/Institute_for_Family_Studies https://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php/Institute_for_Family_S...