7 ms·

China is pretty scary in this way. The Han ethnic group is the majority in population and leadership and it is enacting policies to suppress the population num

China is pretty scary in this way. The Han ethnic group is the majority in population and leadership and it is enacting policies to suppress the population numbers of non Han-ethnic groups in the country. They do it via birth control and family separation so it happening slowly but it is still decreasing the population of non-Han ethnic groups in comparison to the Han ethnic group. When this was done elsewhere it was declared as the worst form of racism/ethnocide/genocide, but in China it is accepted standard practice. Imagine in Donald Trump wanted non-whites to be forced on birth control in the US or if Israel wanted its Arab population on birth control -- there would be uproars and rightly so. But somehow China is getting away with this behaviour towards its ethnic minorities.

uniqueuid 5y ago
These arguments are not unknown in the discourse in western media, but it's always good to fact-check. Do you have any report or data on these at hand? I'd expect amnesty international for example to have complied info on such cases.
- neverywhere 5y ago
  AP News article on birth suppression: https://apnews.com/article/ap-top-news-international-news-weekend-reads-china-health-269b3de1af34e17c1941a514f78d764c https://apnews.com/article/ap-top-news-international-news-we...
  - uniqueuid 5y ago
    Thanks, this looks really well-researched! "an AP investigation based on government statistics, state documents and interviews with 30 ex-detainees, family members and a former detention camp instructor. "
colpabar 5y ago
>Imagine if Israel You don't have to imagine. https://www.haaretz.com/.premium-ethiopians-coerced-into-birth-control-1.5300291 https://www.haaretz.com/.premium-ethiopians-coerced-into-bir...
- skinkestek 5y ago
  The fuller quote that you conveniently leftout for it to match your sources is: > if Israel wanted its Arab population on birth control (emphasis mine) So, for a start the article is about something completely different. Secondly the article seems pretty open about the fact that the claims are dubious at best.
  - random314 5y ago
    I guess it's ok because it is not as if Arabs are being forced on birth control, only Black Jews. Thank you for emphasizing the key point. https://www.pri.org/stories/2013-01-28/israel-admits-injecting-ethiopian-jews-contraceptives-amid-consent-concerns https://www.pri.org/stories/2013-01-28/israel-admits-injecti...
  - colpabar 5y ago
    ok sure, replace arab with black then. This whole thread is about poor treatment of ethnic minorities, and the point of the comment I replied to is that we wouldn't tolerate forced sterilization of an ethnic minority group from a country like Israel. My response was that Israel has already done this, and we all seemed to tolerate it just fine.
    - skinkestek 5y ago
      My point is that you respond to one claim with something else while cutting the context and pretending it is the same. And as I already pointed out the article is pretty clear that there isn't actually convincing evidence, especially not against Israel (it seems to be about a possible rogue NGO or something?)
      - colpabar 5y ago
        >My point is that you respond to one claim with something else while cutting the context and pretending it is the same. Here's the bit I responded to. >Imagine in Donald Trump wanted non-whites to be forced on birth control in the US or if Israel wanted its Arab population on birth control -- there would be uproars and rightly so. I don't think that questions changes much if you replace "Arab" with any other ethnic minority group in Israel. Black Ethiopians are an ethnic minority group in Israel, and they were given birth control against their will by the state of Israel. >And as I already pointed out the article is pretty clear that there isn't actually convincing evidence, especially not against Israel (it seems to be about a possible rogue NGO or something?) Israeli officials admitting they did indeed give them birth control isn't strong evidence against Israel? What about the source below? https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-ethiopians-fooled-into-birth-control-1.5226424 https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-ethiopians-fool...
utunbu 5y ago
> birth control If you're referring to the now-obsolete one-child policy, IIRC, they do this to all ethnicity. The ethnic minority usually got more slack when the government enforced this policy. > family separation Mind elaborate a bit?
- ChemSpider 5y ago
  Not OP, but China does many shady things in the Uighur region. For example: https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2018/09/china-internment-camps-uighur-muslim-children/569062/ https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2018/09/ch...
- uniqueuid 5y ago
  He's referring to the forced/coerced use of IUDs, which are technically birth control.
- neverywhere 5y ago
  I was referring to this: https://apnews.com/article/ap-top-news-international-news-weekend-reads-china-health-269b3de1af34e17c1941a514f78d764c https://apnews.com/article/ap-top-news-international-news-we...
- drocer88 5y ago
  https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-53220713 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-53220713 : "China forcing birth control on Uighurs to suppress population, report says". https://apnews.com/article/ap-top-news-international-news-weekend-reads-china-health-269b3de1af34e17c1941a514f78d764c https://apnews.com/article/ap-top-news-international-news-we... : China cuts Uighur births with IUDs, abortion, sterilization
- thaumasiotes 5y ago
  > The ethnic minority usually got more slack when the government enforced this policy. More importantly, the policy officially allowed minorities to have two children, which is very much the opposite of driving down minority numbers relative to Han numbers. There is a popular poem reflecting the Han's view of what their government thinks of them: 一等外人，二等官三等少民，四等汉
mc32 5y ago
The reason companies and celebrities on Twitter don’t denounce (as they would if this were happening in Israel or Italy), is that one, it would impact earnings and two, they hold China as different enough that they’re different and they can do different things and we won’t be too bothered by it.
ethbr0 5y ago
> enacting policies to suppress the population numbers of non Han-ethnic groups in the country It is terrible. It is also common, although thankfully not so much in the 21st century as in previous. Of the top of my head... Americans, British, Canadians, Australians, Spanish South America, Germany, Russia, Various Balkan countries. My African history isn't very good, but I'd imagine there too. And these are just examples of state-sponsored and facilitated, non-genocidal (so leaving out direct murder) attempts to shift the majority ethnicity within an area. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_frontier https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_frontier https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plantation_of_Ulster https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plantation_of_Ulster https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Indian_residential_school_system https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Indian_residential_... https://australianstogether.org.au/discover/australian-history/a-white-australia/ https://australianstogether.org.au/discover/australian-histo... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_Uruguay https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_Uruguay https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupation_of_Poland_(1939%E2%80%931945) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupation_of_Poland_(1939%E... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Balkans https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Balkans
- elefanten 5y ago
  This is nonresponsive nonsense. First, you can't just link half of wikipedia and assume the correct supporting argument must be in there somewhere. There's a huge difference between different types of population control measures. But more to your direct point: the CCP is engaging in forced sterilizations right now in 2021. See sibling comments with links.
  - ethbr0 5y ago
    I linked "half of wikipedia", because that's in how many countries changing majority ethnicities has been state policy. I'm not one to often bring whataboutism into arguments involving China, but I think it's an important point of context that many of the world's now-stable countries either perpetrated same or were victims of it. It doesn't begin to excuse or justify it, but it does provide some perspective on the darker parts of our own history.
kat 5y ago
There are increasing number of reports in Canada that Indigenous Women were forcefully sterilized in the last few decades. Women who gave birth in hospitals had their tubes tied after giving birth. I agree this is a one of "the worst forms of racisim/ethonicide/genocide". And yes, I dont understand why more (white) Canadians are not aware of this, and why there has not been a larger out cry over this. https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskatoon/report-indigenous-women-coerced-tubal-ligations-1.4224286 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskatoon/report-indigenous-w... [Edit] I am against forced sterilization by anyone on to any one. I want to highlight that sterilization has happened in recent years in Canada. As the message above me points out, there is very little outcry in North America. Here is a data point where sterilization has happened in Canada and there is very little public outcry or knowledge of the situation.
- neverywhere 5y ago
  This is important and equivalent. Forced sterilizations of minority ethnic groups by the majority ethnic group is a crime against humanity.
- emkoemko 5y ago
  yea exactly thing is most people don't want that to happen today.. in Canada.. and the government also.. nor do we want it to happen in west Taiwan... i don't get these peoples arguments that because other people did evil crap west Taiwan should be allowed to do it as well? is that what your trying to say?
  - kat 5y ago
    I didn't intend this to be an argument FOR forced medical procedures. I think forced medical procedures of any type are wrong! I wanted to add a data point that forced birth control happens in Canada. Forced birth control is not something limited to the CPP handbook.
    - emkoemko 5y ago
      but you agree it should not happen or are you saying because it happens in Canada, we should be fine with it in happening in West Taiwan? whats your opinion on forced organ harvesting? and slave labour ? i mean slavery did happen in the past and now most places ban it but since it did happen its fine for West Taiwan to do it? or Libya? i just don't get the argument that because X happened in X place, people from X place can't be against it in another country? when they are against it happening anywhere, including their country.
StreamBright 5y ago
>> China is pretty scary in this way. The Han ethnic group is the majority in population and leadership and it is enacting policies to suppress the population numbers of non Han-ethnic groups in the country. Factually incorrect. It is the opposite. Quite many ethnic groups had more right than the Han majority. One example: "The policy also allowed exceptions for some other groups, including ethnic minorities." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-child_policy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-child_policy
mapgrep 5y ago
It’s worse than birth control. There are concentration camps in xinjiang. Called “re-education” or “vocational training.” There are many places to begin educating yourself on this (not directed at the person I’m replying to, but to the downvoters). You can start here if you like. Hrw is human rights watch. https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/19/break-their-lineage-break-their-roots/chinas-crimes-against-humanity-targeting https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/19/break-their-lineage-br...

uniqueuid 5y ago

These arguments are not unknown in the discourse in western media, but it's always good to fact-check. Do you have any report or data on these at hand? I'd expect amnesty international for example to have complied info on such cases.

neverywhere 5y ago
AP News article on birth suppression: https://apnews.com/article/ap-top-news-international-news-weekend-reads-china-health-269b3de1af34e17c1941a514f78d764c https://apnews.com/article/ap-top-news-international-news-we...
- uniqueuid 5y ago
  Thanks, this looks really well-researched! "an AP investigation based on government statistics, state documents and interviews with 30 ex-detainees, family members and a former detention camp instructor. "

colpabar 5y ago

>Imagine if Israel You don't have to imagine. https://www.haaretz.com/.premium-ethiopians-coerced-into-birth-control-1.5300291 https://www.haaretz.com/.premium-ethiopians-coerced-into-bir...

skinkestek 5y ago
The fuller quote that you conveniently leftout for it to match your sources is: > if Israel wanted its Arab population on birth control (emphasis mine) So, for a start the article is about something completely different. Secondly the article seems pretty open about the fact that the claims are dubious at best.
- random314 5y ago
  I guess it's ok because it is not as if Arabs are being forced on birth control, only Black Jews. Thank you for emphasizing the key point. https://www.pri.org/stories/2013-01-28/israel-admits-injecting-ethiopian-jews-contraceptives-amid-consent-concerns https://www.pri.org/stories/2013-01-28/israel-admits-injecti...
- colpabar 5y ago
  ok sure, replace arab with black then. This whole thread is about poor treatment of ethnic minorities, and the point of the comment I replied to is that we wouldn't tolerate forced sterilization of an ethnic minority group from a country like Israel. My response was that Israel has already done this, and we all seemed to tolerate it just fine.
  - skinkestek 5y ago
    My point is that you respond to one claim with something else while cutting the context and pretending it is the same. And as I already pointed out the article is pretty clear that there isn't actually convincing evidence, especially not against Israel (it seems to be about a possible rogue NGO or something?)
    - colpabar 5y ago
      >My point is that you respond to one claim with something else while cutting the context and pretending it is the same. Here's the bit I responded to. >Imagine in Donald Trump wanted non-whites to be forced on birth control in the US or if Israel wanted its Arab population on birth control -- there would be uproars and rightly so. I don't think that questions changes much if you replace "Arab" with any other ethnic minority group in Israel. Black Ethiopians are an ethnic minority group in Israel, and they were given birth control against their will by the state of Israel. >And as I already pointed out the article is pretty clear that there isn't actually convincing evidence, especially not against Israel (it seems to be about a possible rogue NGO or something?) Israeli officials admitting they did indeed give them birth control isn't strong evidence against Israel? What about the source below? https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-ethiopians-fooled-into-birth-control-1.5226424 https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-ethiopians-fool...

utunbu 5y ago

> birth control If you're referring to the now-obsolete one-child policy, IIRC, they do this to all ethnicity. The ethnic minority usually got more slack when the government enforced this policy. > family separation Mind elaborate a bit?

ChemSpider 5y ago
Not OP, but China does many shady things in the Uighur region. For example: https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2018/09/china-internment-camps-uighur-muslim-children/569062/ https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2018/09/ch...
uniqueuid 5y ago
He's referring to the forced/coerced use of IUDs, which are technically birth control.
neverywhere 5y ago
I was referring to this: https://apnews.com/article/ap-top-news-international-news-weekend-reads-china-health-269b3de1af34e17c1941a514f78d764c https://apnews.com/article/ap-top-news-international-news-we...
drocer88 5y ago
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-53220713 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-53220713 : "China forcing birth control on Uighurs to suppress population, report says". https://apnews.com/article/ap-top-news-international-news-weekend-reads-china-health-269b3de1af34e17c1941a514f78d764c https://apnews.com/article/ap-top-news-international-news-we... : China cuts Uighur births with IUDs, abortion, sterilization
thaumasiotes 5y ago
> The ethnic minority usually got more slack when the government enforced this policy. More importantly, the policy officially allowed minorities to have two children, which is very much the opposite of driving down minority numbers relative to Han numbers. There is a popular poem reflecting the Han's view of what their government thinks of them: 一等外人，二等官三等少民，四等汉

mc32 5y ago

The reason companies and celebrities on Twitter don’t denounce (as they would if this were happening in Israel or Italy), is that one, it would impact earnings and two, they hold China as different enough that they’re different and they can do different things and we won’t be too bothered by it.

ethbr0 5y ago

> enacting policies to suppress the population numbers of non Han-ethnic groups in the country It is terrible. It is also common, although thankfully not so much in the 21st century as in previous. Of the top of my head... Americans, British, Canadians, Australians, Spanish South America, Germany, Russia, Various Balkan countries. My African history isn't very good, but I'd imagine there too. And these are just examples of state-sponsored and facilitated, non-genocidal (so leaving out direct murder) attempts to shift the majority ethnicity within an area. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_frontier https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_frontier https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plantation_of_Ulster https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plantation_of_Ulster https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Indian_residential_school_system https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Indian_residential_... https://australianstogether.org.au/discover/australian-history/a-white-australia/ https://australianstogether.org.au/discover/australian-histo... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_Uruguay https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_Uruguay https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupation_of_Poland_(1939%E2%80%931945) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupation_of_Poland_(1939%E... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Balkans https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Balkans

elefanten 5y ago
This is nonresponsive nonsense. First, you can't just link half of wikipedia and assume the correct supporting argument must be in there somewhere. There's a huge difference between different types of population control measures. But more to your direct point: the CCP is engaging in forced sterilizations right now in 2021. See sibling comments with links.
- ethbr0 5y ago
  I linked "half of wikipedia", because that's in how many countries changing majority ethnicities has been state policy. I'm not one to often bring whataboutism into arguments involving China, but I think it's an important point of context that many of the world's now-stable countries either perpetrated same or were victims of it. It doesn't begin to excuse or justify it, but it does provide some perspective on the darker parts of our own history.

kat 5y ago

There are increasing number of reports in Canada that Indigenous Women were forcefully sterilized in the last few decades. Women who gave birth in hospitals had their tubes tied after giving birth. I agree this is a one of "the worst forms of racisim/ethonicide/genocide". And yes, I dont understand why more (white) Canadians are not aware of this, and why there has not been a larger out cry over this. https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskatoon/report-indigenous-women-coerced-tubal-ligations-1.4224286 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskatoon/report-indigenous-w... [Edit] I am against forced sterilization by anyone on to any one. I want to highlight that sterilization has happened in recent years in Canada. As the message above me points out, there is very little outcry in North America. Here is a data point where sterilization has happened in Canada and there is very little public outcry or knowledge of the situation.

neverywhere 5y ago
This is important and equivalent. Forced sterilizations of minority ethnic groups by the majority ethnic group is a crime against humanity.
emkoemko 5y ago
yea exactly thing is most people don't want that to happen today.. in Canada.. and the government also.. nor do we want it to happen in west Taiwan... i don't get these peoples arguments that because other people did evil crap west Taiwan should be allowed to do it as well? is that what your trying to say?
- kat 5y ago
  I didn't intend this to be an argument FOR forced medical procedures. I think forced medical procedures of any type are wrong! I wanted to add a data point that forced birth control happens in Canada. Forced birth control is not something limited to the CPP handbook.
  - emkoemko 5y ago
    but you agree it should not happen or are you saying because it happens in Canada, we should be fine with it in happening in West Taiwan? whats your opinion on forced organ harvesting? and slave labour ? i mean slavery did happen in the past and now most places ban it but since it did happen its fine for West Taiwan to do it? or Libya? i just don't get the argument that because X happened in X place, people from X place can't be against it in another country? when they are against it happening anywhere, including their country.

StreamBright 5y ago

>> China is pretty scary in this way. The Han ethnic group is the majority in population and leadership and it is enacting policies to suppress the population numbers of non Han-ethnic groups in the country. Factually incorrect. It is the opposite. Quite many ethnic groups had more right than the Han majority. One example: "The policy also allowed exceptions for some other groups, including ethnic minorities." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-child_policy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-child_policy

mapgrep 5y ago

It’s worse than birth control. There are concentration camps in xinjiang. Called “re-education” or “vocational training.” There are many places to begin educating yourself on this (not directed at the person I’m replying to, but to the downvoters). You can start here if you like. Hrw is human rights watch. https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/19/break-their-lineage-break-their-roots/chinas-crimes-against-humanity-targeting https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/19/break-their-lineage-br...