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It is good idea in terms of long-term money spendings: if you already have good C++ HTTP framework, you spend less cpu/memory and can make web-service\site that

It is good idea in terms of long-term money spendings: if you already have good C++ HTTP framework, you spend less cpu/memory and can make web-service\site that can live forever for 0.00001 dollars a month. Of if you planning to serve lost of requests AND want users to feel low latency responce, you have no options: Rust, Go, C++, maybe something else. Main fight must occur on the "C++ vs Rust" scene, but C++ certainly wont die in another 20 yers, so you happy using it for long-term projects.

masklinn 5y ago
> Of if you planning to serve lost of requests AND want users to feel low latency responce, you have no options: Rust, Go, C++, maybe something else. That sounds like a lot of options. While I don't exactly like Go, that's very much the sort of things it was designed for, "stdlib-only" go will give you everything you need with pretty much guaranteed safety. > Main fight must occur on the "C++ vs Rust" scene, but C++ certainly wont die in another 20 yers, so you happy using it for long-term projects. The concern is less the death of C++ and more exposing C over the web, which exponentially increases the damage of any mistake you make (likewise C++ though likely with a lower exponent).
- sobakistodor 5y ago
  As I remember, Go was "invented" to allow writing SMALL projects, where people previously used Bash/C/Perl. Like all these small command-line utilities and scripts to solve Site-Reliability-Engineer-tasks or DevOps-tasks. Using Go in projects larger than "multithreaded custom-binary-format to CSV converter" or "daemon watching sensors and inserting ROWS to some DB" is not very good. Big thing about GO is lots of libs available for everything (but in that view Python is better).
  - Cthulhu_ 5y ago
    > As I remember, Go was "invented" to allow writing SMALL projects On the contrary, one of the motivators for building Go was for large (millions of LOC) codebases; build speed and how fast a developer is comfortable in the codebase were big motivators for its build pipeline and code style.
  - coder543 5y ago
    > As I remember, Go was "invented" to allow writing SMALL projects Absolutely not. It is an opinionated language that is designed to make it easier to build large projects. Go is used for tons of large-scale web backends. It's a far better choice for writing network-connected services than C++, let alone C! > Big thing about GO is lots of libs available for everything (but in that view Python is better). Except that Go runs circles around Python, just like most compiled languages. Based on what you've written, I don't believe you have any experience with Go, so why are you writing large comments about it?
    - sobakistodor 5y ago
      Have experience with GO. Feels like C in terms of lack of templates, and feels like Java in terms of "how I avoid world-freezes by GC". Go seems semantically less rich than C++ language makes you write MORE code for the same thing you would write in C++ using your HTTP-framework.
      - coder543 5y ago
        > feels like Java in terms of "how I avoid world-freezes by GC" No… that’s not Go’s GC that you have experience with. I don’t know what language you used that you confused with Go. GC pauses in Go are notoriously tiny, since Go prioritizes consistently low latency. I’ve worked on many Go projects, and GC is not something that I worry about. > Feels like C in terms of lack of templates Are you seriously implying that C was not designed for large projects? That it was designed for tiny projects only? Because that’s not what history shows us, and C is used in massive projects like the Linux kernel. (Which causes innumerable CVEs related to human errors that C doesn’t attempt to prevent, unfortunately.) It also doesn’t matter how fast you can churn out code if it’s Swiss cheese full of memory safety vulnerabilities. No one has ever pointed me to a popular C or C++ project that hasn’t been rife with vulnerabilities that would have been trivially avoided by using any memory safe language… so it’s a fair assumption that any C++ that you’re churning out has problems. You mention Rust, and that’s a perfectly valid option if you have such a passionate hatred of garbage collectors. But, using C++ for a web service in 2021? No thanks. We need to be minimizing attack surface these days. (Memory safe languages can’t prevent all vulnerabilities, but neither do seatbelts. You should still wear a seatbelt when driving. Unbuckling doesn’t make the car go faster, and seatbelts do prevent certain classes of injuries.)
  - masklinn 5y ago
    > As I remember, Go was "invented" to allow writing SMALL projects You remember wrong. Go was designed to allow quickly onboarding grads onto large projects. > Like all these small command-line utilities and scripts to solve Site-Reliability-Engineer-tasks or DevOps-tasks. I don't know what you're thinking about but it's certainly not Go: half the language is centered around concurrency, which is not very useful for this, especially going through the pain and costs "green" threads otherwise impose. Go was designed to build network services and servers.
adrianN 5y ago
The boring, memory safe, option seems to be Java, but I haven't touched java for web stuff in a number of years. Is the performance much worse than Go? Go seems to be really nice for web stuff, afaik it's one of the things it was designed for.
- sobakistodor 5y ago
  Java makes you think about its GC. "What i must do to prevent GC wake up". Always re-use allocated objects and so on. Or you turn off GC. So, you got C++. But with C++ you write smaller code (considering C++11...C++20 standards) compared to Java, so why you need "bloated C++-like language (Java is) if you can use C++".
- Cthulhu_ 5y ago
  I'm sure performance can be comparable (in terms of requests / second) with enough tweaking and sane design choices, but Java has much longer startup times (especially if you use a framework like Spring) and much higher memory usage, so those are things to keep in mind. Go is / feels a lot more minimalistic, much less drama and more direct code. Less opportunities to be clever.

masklinn 5y ago

> Of if you planning to serve lost of requests AND want users to feel low latency responce, you have no options: Rust, Go, C++, maybe something else. That sounds like a lot of options. While I don't exactly like Go, that's very much the sort of things it was designed for, "stdlib-only" go will give you everything you need with pretty much guaranteed safety. > Main fight must occur on the "C++ vs Rust" scene, but C++ certainly wont die in another 20 yers, so you happy using it for long-term projects. The concern is less the death of C++ and more exposing C over the web, which exponentially increases the damage of any mistake you make (likewise C++ though likely with a lower exponent).

sobakistodor 5y ago
As I remember, Go was "invented" to allow writing SMALL projects, where people previously used Bash/C/Perl. Like all these small command-line utilities and scripts to solve Site-Reliability-Engineer-tasks or DevOps-tasks. Using Go in projects larger than "multithreaded custom-binary-format to CSV converter" or "daemon watching sensors and inserting ROWS to some DB" is not very good. Big thing about GO is lots of libs available for everything (but in that view Python is better).
- Cthulhu_ 5y ago
  > As I remember, Go was "invented" to allow writing SMALL projects On the contrary, one of the motivators for building Go was for large (millions of LOC) codebases; build speed and how fast a developer is comfortable in the codebase were big motivators for its build pipeline and code style.
- coder543 5y ago
  > As I remember, Go was "invented" to allow writing SMALL projects Absolutely not. It is an opinionated language that is designed to make it easier to build large projects. Go is used for tons of large-scale web backends. It's a far better choice for writing network-connected services than C++, let alone C! > Big thing about GO is lots of libs available for everything (but in that view Python is better). Except that Go runs circles around Python, just like most compiled languages. Based on what you've written, I don't believe you have any experience with Go, so why are you writing large comments about it?
  - sobakistodor 5y ago
    Have experience with GO. Feels like C in terms of lack of templates, and feels like Java in terms of "how I avoid world-freezes by GC". Go seems semantically less rich than C++ language makes you write MORE code for the same thing you would write in C++ using your HTTP-framework.
    - coder543 5y ago
      > feels like Java in terms of "how I avoid world-freezes by GC" No… that’s not Go’s GC that you have experience with. I don’t know what language you used that you confused with Go. GC pauses in Go are notoriously tiny, since Go prioritizes consistently low latency. I’ve worked on many Go projects, and GC is not something that I worry about. > Feels like C in terms of lack of templates Are you seriously implying that C was not designed for large projects? That it was designed for tiny projects only? Because that’s not what history shows us, and C is used in massive projects like the Linux kernel. (Which causes innumerable CVEs related to human errors that C doesn’t attempt to prevent, unfortunately.) It also doesn’t matter how fast you can churn out code if it’s Swiss cheese full of memory safety vulnerabilities. No one has ever pointed me to a popular C or C++ project that hasn’t been rife with vulnerabilities that would have been trivially avoided by using any memory safe language… so it’s a fair assumption that any C++ that you’re churning out has problems. You mention Rust, and that’s a perfectly valid option if you have such a passionate hatred of garbage collectors. But, using C++ for a web service in 2021? No thanks. We need to be minimizing attack surface these days. (Memory safe languages can’t prevent all vulnerabilities, but neither do seatbelts. You should still wear a seatbelt when driving. Unbuckling doesn’t make the car go faster, and seatbelts do prevent certain classes of injuries.)
- masklinn 5y ago
  > As I remember, Go was "invented" to allow writing SMALL projects You remember wrong. Go was designed to allow quickly onboarding grads onto large projects. > Like all these small command-line utilities and scripts to solve Site-Reliability-Engineer-tasks or DevOps-tasks. I don't know what you're thinking about but it's certainly not Go: half the language is centered around concurrency, which is not very useful for this, especially going through the pain and costs "green" threads otherwise impose. Go was designed to build network services and servers.

adrianN 5y ago

The boring, memory safe, option seems to be Java, but I haven't touched java for web stuff in a number of years. Is the performance much worse than Go? Go seems to be really nice for web stuff, afaik it's one of the things it was designed for.

sobakistodor 5y ago
Java makes you think about its GC. "What i must do to prevent GC wake up". Always re-use allocated objects and so on. Or you turn off GC. So, you got C++. But with C++ you write smaller code (considering C++11...C++20 standards) compared to Java, so why you need "bloated C++-like language (Java is) if you can use C++".
Cthulhu_ 5y ago
I'm sure performance can be comparable (in terms of requests / second) with enough tweaking and sane design choices, but Java has much longer startup times (especially if you use a framework like Spring) and much higher memory usage, so those are things to keep in mind. Go is / feels a lot more minimalistic, much less drama and more direct code. Less opportunities to be clever.