5 ms·

One thing is that it wasn’t communicated that well, but other (and that’s what made me feel really uncomfortable) is that it felt like „This feature is not allo

One thing is that it wasn’t communicated that well, but other (and that’s what made me feel really uncomfortable) is that it felt like „This feature is not allowed anymore - except for some dudes, they’re cool enough and can use it” (e.g. native modules, operators). Either keep or drop feature

G4BB3R 5y ago
Kernel code and custom operators are only allowed under elm/ and elm-explorations/, so only 7 core packages can use them. The core developers cannot use those features in projects like everyone else.
- hashbig 5y ago
  And who can contribute to `elm` and `elm-explorations`? The 7 cool dudes. The Elm contributor circle is a clique that you literally have to be a strong contact with one of the contributors to get into it. It goes against everything open source stands for.
  - slgeorge 5y ago
    > It goes against everything open source stands for Sorry, that's not correct. It goes against your opinion of what open source should stands for, and many projects run in a way where everyone can contribute. But, it's not the only way. The license determines how the code comes, that's the only rule. There's no rules about how a community must run. It's for the code creator (maintainer) to determine how or even IF they want a community of contributors. There's lots of ways of doing open source! And saying it's not "open source' if you don't do X outside the license is just a No true Scotsman.
    - nextaccountic 5y ago
      Open source is a development methodology. The license is the bare minimum.
- ghayes 5y ago
  The problem is there are some reasonable features that cannot be implemented with the current ports system that _should_ fit into the expected design. Specifically, I feel you should be able to replicate the `Http` module using ports or some other available system. However, you cannot properly dispatch a task and then tie together the result with a curried `Msg`, as you might expect or hope [unless you store a complex state object in your model]. These types of issues are the frustrations that, I believe, cause some discontent in the community. I feel more people understand why you should not, per se, make random FFI calls in the middle of pure code (e.g. since it would break dead code elimination and require evaluation order guarantees), but other restrictions seem arbitrary.
- gaereth 5y ago
  The thing I found unsettling wasn’t that something was disabled (fair design decission), but the mindset that considers some features harmful , but is happy enough to use it in its own „special case projects/packages”. It doesn’t really matter for how many packages its available, since it can be changed on a whim. I can only speak for myself, but I found it unfair and patronizing
  - razze 5y ago
    I don't think that's fair. If elm ever wants to replace js it only needs to rewrite the kernel modules, they govern. Otherwise the whole ecosystem would break in that case and yes, that would be a harmful feature.
    - gaereth 5y ago
      I didn’t mean locking features, especially native modules - didn’t write a single one, so personally I won’t miss it. I meant „some repos are more equal then other” mindset. It’s clearer in case of custom operators - they are considered confusing, unless you mean parsing and by parsing you mean elm/json or elm/url, then it’s cool. By all means, I’m not saying those are crucial features or that they don’t have right to do whatever they want with their language. They can and they do. I just find this kind of atitude and reasoning patronizing.

G4BB3R 5y ago

Kernel code and custom operators are only allowed under elm/ and elm-explorations/, so only 7 core packages can use them. The core developers cannot use those features in projects like everyone else.

hashbig 5y ago
And who can contribute to `elm` and `elm-explorations`? The 7 cool dudes. The Elm contributor circle is a clique that you literally have to be a strong contact with one of the contributors to get into it. It goes against everything open source stands for.
- slgeorge 5y ago
  > It goes against everything open source stands for Sorry, that's not correct. It goes against your opinion of what open source should stands for, and many projects run in a way where everyone can contribute. But, it's not the only way. The license determines how the code comes, that's the only rule. There's no rules about how a community must run. It's for the code creator (maintainer) to determine how or even IF they want a community of contributors. There's lots of ways of doing open source! And saying it's not "open source' if you don't do X outside the license is just a No true Scotsman.
  - nextaccountic 5y ago
    Open source is a development methodology. The license is the bare minimum.
ghayes 5y ago
The problem is there are some reasonable features that cannot be implemented with the current ports system that _should_ fit into the expected design. Specifically, I feel you should be able to replicate the `Http` module using ports or some other available system. However, you cannot properly dispatch a task and then tie together the result with a curried `Msg`, as you might expect or hope [unless you store a complex state object in your model]. These types of issues are the frustrations that, I believe, cause some discontent in the community. I feel more people understand why you should not, per se, make random FFI calls in the middle of pure code (e.g. since it would break dead code elimination and require evaluation order guarantees), but other restrictions seem arbitrary.
gaereth 5y ago
The thing I found unsettling wasn’t that something was disabled (fair design decission), but the mindset that considers some features harmful , but is happy enough to use it in its own „special case projects/packages”. It doesn’t really matter for how many packages its available, since it can be changed on a whim. I can only speak for myself, but I found it unfair and patronizing
- razze 5y ago
  I don't think that's fair. If elm ever wants to replace js it only needs to rewrite the kernel modules, they govern. Otherwise the whole ecosystem would break in that case and yes, that would be a harmful feature.
  - gaereth 5y ago
    I didn’t mean locking features, especially native modules - didn’t write a single one, so personally I won’t miss it. I meant „some repos are more equal then other” mindset. It’s clearer in case of custom operators - they are considered confusing, unless you mean parsing and by parsing you mean elm/json or elm/url, then it’s cool. By all means, I’m not saying those are crucial features or that they don’t have right to do whatever they want with their language. They can and they do. I just find this kind of atitude and reasoning patronizing.