7 ms·

This is quite cynical. I think the vaccines are doing pretty dang well considering they were developed in a matter of weeks following discovery of the virus, an

by whafro 5y ago

This is quite cynical. I think the vaccines are doing pretty dang well considering they were developed in a matter of weeks following discovery of the virus, and work very robustly against not only the variants that were targeted, but also many that were not. HIV has decades of study and literature behind it, so why not be more optimistic about the prospects for progress?

jmnicolas 5y ago
First think that poped in DDG: >Israel reinstates some virus restrictions to avoid a full lockdown. https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/04/world/israel-covid-restrictions-lockdown.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/04/world/israel-covid-restri... Sorry it's a paywall but the title is enough. Doesn't scream vaccine efficacy to me since they are in the top vaccinated country list.
- jmnicolas 5y ago
  I'd like to know what the downvoters think. Those vaccines have become a kind of dogma...
  - FartyMcFarter 5y ago
    Israel has vaccinated 60-70% of its population, which isn't enough for herd immunity. As for your comment specifically, "the title is enough" isn't a very convincing argument for anything.
    - native_samples 5y ago
      That is the exact threshold that was previously being presented as good enough for herd immunity. But herd immunity stats are all made up anyway. Fauci admitted the US value for herd immunity threshold was being picked based on opinion polling, not science.
      - lobocinza 5y ago
        It depends on effective R that is affected by a lot of dynamic factors like social distancing and R0 (new variants keep popping). Herd immunity for Covid is bullshit.
  - zibzab 5y ago
    No dogma. Most people are just tired of anti-vaxers and their excuses. Edit: this went downhill rather quickly :(
    - logicchains 5y ago
      Someone is as much anti-vax for not wanting the mRNA vax as someone is anti-Linux for not wanting to run the Gentoo nightly build as their operating systemm.
      - ceejayoz 5y ago
        Nah. It's like Bill Gates in the 1990s writing a blog post about the latest Linux distribution and how dangerous the viral GPL within it is. You know they'll say it about any vaccine, and have been, and that the criticisms are disingenuous and frequently based in deliberate misconceptions.
    - jmnicolas 5y ago
      Did you consider that I'm tired too? I have become a pariah in my own country (France), I am now forbidden to vote, go to a hospital (unless it's an emergency) , go in a shopping mall and go in a restaurant. But just explain me one thing please. If you trust the vaccine, why are you afraid of me, if it works you will be protected right?
      - ceejayoz 5y ago
        > I have become a pariah in my own country (France), I am now forbidden to vote, go to a hospital (unless it's an emergency) , go in a shopping mall and go in a restaurant. None of this is true; you have the option of presenting a recent negative test result as an alternative.
        jmnicolas 5y ago
        All of it is true since I refuse to be tracked like some cattle. This is a matter of principle. I'm a human being, not some cog in an inhuman system. Where's the logic to let people use the metro without any QRCODE but they can't go in a shopping mall? Anyway, soon the tests won't be free anymore. To have the same "freedom" as a vaccinated person would require to spend about 300€ per month.
- ceejayoz 5y ago
  You're not addressing the point you're replying to; that these vaccines were developed in weeks as an emergency. They're non-sterilizing. We wish they were sterilizing vaccines, but that's gonna be the next round now. They're also not at 80% of the full population; most of the vaccination percentages you see batted around are in adults only, because most countries have vaccinated 0% of their under-12s. https://apnews.com/article/fact-checking-644288348135 https://apnews.com/article/fact-checking-644288348135 > Israel has a population of approximately 9.3 million people, of which more than 60% are fully vaccinated, according toJuly 21 numbers from the online scientific publication, Our World In Data. The country has had one of the swiftest vaccine rollouts in the world. By February, 80% of those over 60 had already received shots.
  - jmnicolas 5y ago
    > that these vaccines were developed in weeks as an emergency. I shouldn't have to address this point since the vaccines are presented as ultra efficient (94% or more). > because most countries have vaccinated 0% of their under-12s. They're not at risk, why should they get vaccinated? So now you're going to tell me they're transmitting the virus. OK, but if the vaccine works, who cares? If the vaccine works why are vaccinated people afraid of the unvaccinated. If it doesn't work why get vaccinated and why insist everyone gets it?
    - ceejayoz 5y ago
      > the vaccines are presented as ultra efficient (94% or more) At preventing severe disease. Which has been stated since the beginning, remains accurate, and your not understanding that seems to be core to your confusion.
      - jmnicolas 5y ago
        > At preventing severe disease. Why the hate for the unvaccinated if all you risk as a vaccinated person is a mild disease? There was no such paranoia for the flu which was still deadly. I'm sorry but I fail to see the logic of what is happening in the world right now. As I said in another comment, I became a pariah in my country, France, for no good stated reason.
- teknopaul 5y ago
  Government reaction to case spikes does not reflect at all on the efficiency of vaccines. Vaccines don't stop you getting a disease they prepare your immune system for it, so when it happens you are more likely to survive. Seems to me Spanish government bodies (where I live) look at headline case rates and then start making bizarre rules without talking to the scientists.
  - jmnicolas 5y ago
    > Government reaction to case spikes does not reflect at all on the efficiency of vaccines. Living in France I can agree on that. Yet vaccinated people are still having severe problems up to dying from COVID.
  - Amarok 5y ago
    The vaccine could have stopped the disease if they'd opted for IgA immunity instead of IgG. That means getting drops in your nose rather than a jab, so that immmune cells are activated in the mucosas rather than in the blood. Right now someone who's been vaccinated can continue to replicate and transmite the virus from the glial cells in the nose mucosa, because the immune cells there haven't been trained to fight the virus.
- moogleii 5y ago
  Infection rate is just an umbrella stat. Hospitalization and death rates are much improved for those with the vaccine. https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/08/10/us/covid-breakthrough-infections-vaccines.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/08/10/us/covid-brea...

by whafro 5y ago

jmnicolas 5y ago

First think that poped in DDG: >Israel reinstates some virus restrictions to avoid a full lockdown. https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/04/world/israel-covid-restrictions-lockdown.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/04/world/israel-covid-restri... Sorry it's a paywall but the title is enough. Doesn't scream vaccine efficacy to me since they are in the top vaccinated country list.

jmnicolas 5y ago
I'd like to know what the downvoters think. Those vaccines have become a kind of dogma...
- FartyMcFarter 5y ago
  Israel has vaccinated 60-70% of its population, which isn't enough for herd immunity. As for your comment specifically, "the title is enough" isn't a very convincing argument for anything.
  - native_samples 5y ago
    That is the exact threshold that was previously being presented as good enough for herd immunity. But herd immunity stats are all made up anyway. Fauci admitted the US value for herd immunity threshold was being picked based on opinion polling, not science.
    - lobocinza 5y ago
      It depends on effective R that is affected by a lot of dynamic factors like social distancing and R0 (new variants keep popping). Herd immunity for Covid is bullshit.
- zibzab 5y ago
  No dogma. Most people are just tired of anti-vaxers and their excuses. Edit: this went downhill rather quickly :(
  - logicchains 5y ago
    Someone is as much anti-vax for not wanting the mRNA vax as someone is anti-Linux for not wanting to run the Gentoo nightly build as their operating systemm.
    - ceejayoz 5y ago
      Nah. It's like Bill Gates in the 1990s writing a blog post about the latest Linux distribution and how dangerous the viral GPL within it is. You know they'll say it about any vaccine, and have been, and that the criticisms are disingenuous and frequently based in deliberate misconceptions.
  - jmnicolas 5y ago
    Did you consider that I'm tired too? I have become a pariah in my own country (France), I am now forbidden to vote, go to a hospital (unless it's an emergency) , go in a shopping mall and go in a restaurant. But just explain me one thing please. If you trust the vaccine, why are you afraid of me, if it works you will be protected right?
    - ceejayoz 5y ago
      > I have become a pariah in my own country (France), I am now forbidden to vote, go to a hospital (unless it's an emergency) , go in a shopping mall and go in a restaurant. None of this is true; you have the option of presenting a recent negative test result as an alternative.
      - jmnicolas 5y ago
        All of it is true since I refuse to be tracked like some cattle. This is a matter of principle. I'm a human being, not some cog in an inhuman system. Where's the logic to let people use the metro without any QRCODE but they can't go in a shopping mall? Anyway, soon the tests won't be free anymore. To have the same "freedom" as a vaccinated person would require to spend about 300€ per month.
ceejayoz 5y ago
You're not addressing the point you're replying to; that these vaccines were developed in weeks as an emergency. They're non-sterilizing. We wish they were sterilizing vaccines, but that's gonna be the next round now. They're also not at 80% of the full population; most of the vaccination percentages you see batted around are in adults only, because most countries have vaccinated 0% of their under-12s. https://apnews.com/article/fact-checking-644288348135 https://apnews.com/article/fact-checking-644288348135 > Israel has a population of approximately 9.3 million people, of which more than 60% are fully vaccinated, according toJuly 21 numbers from the online scientific publication, Our World In Data. The country has had one of the swiftest vaccine rollouts in the world. By February, 80% of those over 60 had already received shots.
- jmnicolas 5y ago
  > that these vaccines were developed in weeks as an emergency. I shouldn't have to address this point since the vaccines are presented as ultra efficient (94% or more). > because most countries have vaccinated 0% of their under-12s. They're not at risk, why should they get vaccinated? So now you're going to tell me they're transmitting the virus. OK, but if the vaccine works, who cares? If the vaccine works why are vaccinated people afraid of the unvaccinated. If it doesn't work why get vaccinated and why insist everyone gets it?
  - ceejayoz 5y ago
    > the vaccines are presented as ultra efficient (94% or more) At preventing severe disease. Which has been stated since the beginning, remains accurate, and your not understanding that seems to be core to your confusion.
    - jmnicolas 5y ago
      > At preventing severe disease. Why the hate for the unvaccinated if all you risk as a vaccinated person is a mild disease? There was no such paranoia for the flu which was still deadly. I'm sorry but I fail to see the logic of what is happening in the world right now. As I said in another comment, I became a pariah in my country, France, for no good stated reason.
teknopaul 5y ago
Government reaction to case spikes does not reflect at all on the efficiency of vaccines. Vaccines don't stop you getting a disease they prepare your immune system for it, so when it happens you are more likely to survive. Seems to me Spanish government bodies (where I live) look at headline case rates and then start making bizarre rules without talking to the scientists.
- jmnicolas 5y ago
  > Government reaction to case spikes does not reflect at all on the efficiency of vaccines. Living in France I can agree on that. Yet vaccinated people are still having severe problems up to dying from COVID.
- Amarok 5y ago
  The vaccine could have stopped the disease if they'd opted for IgA immunity instead of IgG. That means getting drops in your nose rather than a jab, so that immmune cells are activated in the mucosas rather than in the blood. Right now someone who's been vaccinated can continue to replicate and transmite the virus from the glial cells in the nose mucosa, because the immune cells there haven't been trained to fight the virus.
moogleii 5y ago
Infection rate is just an umbrella stat. Hospitalization and death rates are much improved for those with the vaccine. https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/08/10/us/covid-breakthrough-infections-vaccines.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/08/10/us/covid-brea...