5 ms·

Average hourly wages have, but what about the median?

by crymer11 5y ago

lotsofpulp 5y ago
I do not understand why averages are so often used rather than deciles or even quintiles.
- Clubber 5y ago
  Not always, but a lot of times people pick the number that supports their conclusion. For example, worker pay. If you want to make it seem higher, include the executives and do a mean average. Life expectancy works the same way. It's not that adults typically died at age 30, it's the number is a mean and includes child deaths which was a lot at the time. If you have 4 people, 2 are 60 and 2 died at birth, the mean age is 30. (60 + 60 + 0 + 0) / 4 = life expectancy of 30.
  - lotsofpulp 5y ago
    Yes, I cannot see any non cynical reason why the source of the data would want to only release the average. And even then, they usually do not specify what kind of average!
MontyCarloHall 5y ago
Average vs. median have grown fairly proportionally since 2000 [0]. Note, this chart is adjusted for inflation. [0] https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/gs-live/uploads%2F1527022617560-mean-income_chartbuilder+%281%29.png https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/gs-live/uploads%2F1527022...
- lotsofpulp 5y ago
  This is a better graph including the past 5 years: https://cdn.dqydj.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/inflation-median-average-top-10-5-1-percent-household-income-1968-2020-768x565.png https://cdn.dqydj.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/inflation-m... Source: https://dqydj.com/individual-income-by-year/ https://dqydj.com/individual-income-by-year/
  - MontyCarloHall 5y ago
    Looks like that despite the top <=10% seeing a disproportionate increase in their income, the overall average and median are still growing relatively proportionally, though not to the same degree as 5 years ago.
  - Robotbeat 5y ago
    That is much better and it shows that median household incomes hadn’t grown much until recently (as the tight labor market and years of boom have pushed up wages). I still think it’s crazy our minimum wage is so low ($7.50/hr today vs $11/hour in late 1960s in today’s money). IMHO, it should be pinned to productivity growth since the 1960s (the question is: should we have higher or lower inequality than in the 1960s? The most conservative answer would be “the same”, in which case you tie the ratio of GDP per capita to minimum wage to the same level it was in the 1960s.), which would put the federal minimum wage somewhere north of $20/hour. (Or perhaps a regional approach where a minimum wage of $15/hour is universal and then above that, minimum wage at 40hours/week is three times what it’d need to support a two bedroom apartment rent at median local prices.) I’m also convinced that stagnated wages has caused stagnation in productivity growth, because as minimum wage becomes cheaper through inflation, it makes less sense for companies to invest in productivity enhancing automation and efficiency as they can just hire cheap workers and fire them as needed.
    - thegrimmest 5y ago
      Isn't the fact of rapidly climbing, market-driven compensation for typically-minimum-wage jobs such as food service, hospitality and labour sufficient to dispense with minimum wages all together? Yes perhaps the market takes X years to adjust, but it does in fact adjust. Why not just wait the years and save all the bureaucracy. > they can just hire cheap workers and fire them as needed But doesn't increasing the minimum wage just price these people who were formerly being hired/fired completely out of the labour market?
      - Robotbeat 5y ago
        No, because usually we aren’t in such an extremely tight labor market driven by high federal spending. If you want to argue for indefinite high federal spending to guarantee a tight labor market for decades, then sure, a higher minimum wage might not be necessary. Is that what you’re arguing? Because if a tight labor market is transitory (and minimum wage keeps dropping due to inflation), then businesses won’t be given a firm enough pricing signal to make productivity investments.
- tedheath123 5y ago
  Would it be fair to say that this chart shows real US median incomes to be stagnant since the late 80s?
rory 5y ago
Sidenote-- is average === mean the standard lexicon now? When I was in grade school we learned that average was a generic term for mean, median, or mode. So when I see average conflated with median in discussion (as it often is), I assume it's intentional. But others seem to interpret it as a synonym of mean.

Average hourly wages have, but what about the median?

lotsofpulp 5y ago

I do not understand why averages are so often used rather than deciles or even quintiles.

Clubber 5y ago
Not always, but a lot of times people pick the number that supports their conclusion. For example, worker pay. If you want to make it seem higher, include the executives and do a mean average. Life expectancy works the same way. It's not that adults typically died at age 30, it's the number is a mean and includes child deaths which was a lot at the time. If you have 4 people, 2 are 60 and 2 died at birth, the mean age is 30. (60 + 60 + 0 + 0) / 4 = life expectancy of 30.
- lotsofpulp 5y ago
  Yes, I cannot see any non cynical reason why the source of the data would want to only release the average. And even then, they usually do not specify what kind of average!

MontyCarloHall 5y ago

Average vs. median have grown fairly proportionally since 2000 [0]. Note, this chart is adjusted for inflation. [0] https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/gs-live/uploads%2F1527022617560-mean-income_chartbuilder+%281%29.png https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/gs-live/uploads%2F1527022...

lotsofpulp 5y ago
This is a better graph including the past 5 years: https://cdn.dqydj.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/inflation-median-average-top-10-5-1-percent-household-income-1968-2020-768x565.png https://cdn.dqydj.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/inflation-m... Source: https://dqydj.com/individual-income-by-year/ https://dqydj.com/individual-income-by-year/
- MontyCarloHall 5y ago
  Looks like that despite the top <=10% seeing a disproportionate increase in their income, the overall average and median are still growing relatively proportionally, though not to the same degree as 5 years ago.
- Robotbeat 5y ago
  That is much better and it shows that median household incomes hadn’t grown much until recently (as the tight labor market and years of boom have pushed up wages). I still think it’s crazy our minimum wage is so low ($7.50/hr today vs $11/hour in late 1960s in today’s money). IMHO, it should be pinned to productivity growth since the 1960s (the question is: should we have higher or lower inequality than in the 1960s? The most conservative answer would be “the same”, in which case you tie the ratio of GDP per capita to minimum wage to the same level it was in the 1960s.), which would put the federal minimum wage somewhere north of $20/hour. (Or perhaps a regional approach where a minimum wage of $15/hour is universal and then above that, minimum wage at 40hours/week is three times what it’d need to support a two bedroom apartment rent at median local prices.) I’m also convinced that stagnated wages has caused stagnation in productivity growth, because as minimum wage becomes cheaper through inflation, it makes less sense for companies to invest in productivity enhancing automation and efficiency as they can just hire cheap workers and fire them as needed.
  - thegrimmest 5y ago
    Isn't the fact of rapidly climbing, market-driven compensation for typically-minimum-wage jobs such as food service, hospitality and labour sufficient to dispense with minimum wages all together? Yes perhaps the market takes X years to adjust, but it does in fact adjust. Why not just wait the years and save all the bureaucracy. > they can just hire cheap workers and fire them as needed But doesn't increasing the minimum wage just price these people who were formerly being hired/fired completely out of the labour market?
    - Robotbeat 5y ago
      No, because usually we aren’t in such an extremely tight labor market driven by high federal spending. If you want to argue for indefinite high federal spending to guarantee a tight labor market for decades, then sure, a higher minimum wage might not be necessary. Is that what you’re arguing? Because if a tight labor market is transitory (and minimum wage keeps dropping due to inflation), then businesses won’t be given a firm enough pricing signal to make productivity investments.
tedheath123 5y ago
Would it be fair to say that this chart shows real US median incomes to be stagnant since the late 80s?

rory 5y ago

Sidenote-- is average === mean the standard lexicon now? When I was in grade school we learned that average was a generic term for mean, median, or mode. So when I see average conflated with median in discussion (as it often is), I assume it's intentional. But others seem to interpret it as a synonym of mean.