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But once you make a formal structure flat enough, informal structures can start to solidify and dominate (think High School). I always try to keep this in mind

But once you make a formal structure flat enough, informal structures can start to solidify and dominate (think High School). I always try to keep this in mind, Valve which famously has a completely flat structure, ended up turning into an environment where things like popularity and ability to dispense resources defined the practiced org structure. Be careful what you wish for.

danuker 5y ago
Perhaps "popularity and ability to dispense resources" is better than just "ability to dispense resources" (i.e. traditional hierarchy).
- rowanG077 5y ago
  Did you go to High School with the rampant bullying? Popularity is not linked at all with personality traits that make someone a good leader afaik. Traditional hierarchy at least tries to keep people who are a competent in power.
  - ClumsyPilot 5y ago
    "Did you go to High School with the rampant bullying" Do adults have judgement of pre-pubernecent 14 year olds? I mean, maybe some do, but...
    - rowanG077 5y ago
      High school age is generally 14 to 18. And I wouldn't be so confident adults in unchecked power are better then high schoolers on morality and decency.
      - ClumsyPilot 5y ago
        So the concept of "well adjusted adult' is a myth?
        rowanG077 5y ago
        I'm not entirely sure what you are expecting me to say. I didn't say every adult will be a bully. But not every teenager in high school is a bully either. The existence of "well adjusted adult" doesn't have anything to do with this. You can have "well adjusted adults" and still have rampant bullying. The point I'm making is that a traditional hierarchy tries to put the "wall adjusted adults" with good leadership skills in leadership positions. In contrast to a flat hierarchy where it's essentially just a popularity contest.
        unionpivo 5y ago
        yes. More or less. What happens is that we learn to "hide" our impulses in more social acceptable behavior. We didn't have that many bully's when i grew up but most of them are just slightly more polished version of themselves. But when they are drinking or emotions are high they revert back. (which is bad since 2 of them are cops now) I am not saying that person cannot change his life and ways around. I know some that have done that. But most people (in my expirience) don't
  - DaiPlusPlus 5y ago
    > Popularity is not linked at all with personality traits that make someone a good leader afaik. On the contrary! Good personality traits evolved because they make for good leaders. …which makes me depressed about being on the spectrum because it means I had to accept I could never be a “leader”. (Well, I am a technical lead, it’s in my job-description, but that’s only because I get -Wpedantic on peoples’ code - and not because I can inspire people)
    - rowanG077 5y ago
      Do you have a source for this. I wouldn't say from for example actors and musicians(ultimate popularity contests) that most of them would even be remotely good leaders.
colsandurz 5y ago
I work at a place with a flat structure and I can’t emphasize enough how true this is. It’s especially noticeable when you’re not one of the in-crowd.

danuker 5y ago

Perhaps "popularity and ability to dispense resources" is better than just "ability to dispense resources" (i.e. traditional hierarchy).

rowanG077 5y ago
Did you go to High School with the rampant bullying? Popularity is not linked at all with personality traits that make someone a good leader afaik. Traditional hierarchy at least tries to keep people who are a competent in power.
- ClumsyPilot 5y ago
  "Did you go to High School with the rampant bullying" Do adults have judgement of pre-pubernecent 14 year olds? I mean, maybe some do, but...
  - rowanG077 5y ago
    High school age is generally 14 to 18. And I wouldn't be so confident adults in unchecked power are better then high schoolers on morality and decency.
    - ClumsyPilot 5y ago
      So the concept of "well adjusted adult' is a myth?
      - rowanG077 5y ago
        I'm not entirely sure what you are expecting me to say. I didn't say every adult will be a bully. But not every teenager in high school is a bully either. The existence of "well adjusted adult" doesn't have anything to do with this. You can have "well adjusted adults" and still have rampant bullying. The point I'm making is that a traditional hierarchy tries to put the "wall adjusted adults" with good leadership skills in leadership positions. In contrast to a flat hierarchy where it's essentially just a popularity contest.
      - unionpivo 5y ago
        yes. More or less. What happens is that we learn to "hide" our impulses in more social acceptable behavior. We didn't have that many bully's when i grew up but most of them are just slightly more polished version of themselves. But when they are drinking or emotions are high they revert back. (which is bad since 2 of them are cops now) I am not saying that person cannot change his life and ways around. I know some that have done that. But most people (in my expirience) don't
- DaiPlusPlus 5y ago
  > Popularity is not linked at all with personality traits that make someone a good leader afaik. On the contrary! Good personality traits evolved because they make for good leaders. …which makes me depressed about being on the spectrum because it means I had to accept I could never be a “leader”. (Well, I am a technical lead, it’s in my job-description, but that’s only because I get -Wpedantic on peoples’ code - and not because I can inspire people)
  - rowanG077 5y ago
    Do you have a source for this. I wouldn't say from for example actors and musicians(ultimate popularity contests) that most of them would even be remotely good leaders.

colsandurz 5y ago

I work at a place with a flat structure and I can’t emphasize enough how true this is. It’s especially noticeable when you’re not one of the in-crowd.