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> Here in France, i don't know of any evidence that patriarchal control is stricter/stronger in muslims than in atheists/jews/christians/hindus/etc It seems ob

> Here in France, i don't know of any evidence that patriarchal control is stricter/stronger in muslims than in atheists/jews/christians/hindus/etc It seems obvious to me that there's an association there. For example, compulsory hijabs only exist in muslim countries. > muslim expressions of patriarchy are more scrutinized/opposed Maybe in France, towards French muslims. I don't think that the muslim world cares at all what western countries have to say on the topic, though.

southerntofu 5y ago
> compulsory hijabs only exist in muslim countries Yet many muslim countries don't make it compulsory. But you will find regulation of women's dress in most other non-muslim countries, including in France where despite separation of church and State (at least on paper) in 1905, until at least 2010 it was illegal for women to wear trousers. To take another example from my own country, it is highly arguable that police harassing women in burkini to dress less is just as much patriarchal as Iran's moral police harassing women to dress more. > Maybe in France, towards French muslims. I talked about France because that's the situation i know best, from first-hand experiences. However, it's also true on an international level, and there's an entire field of feminist studies dedicating to studying this "imperial feminism" phenomenon: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_feminism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_feminism For example, the somewhat-recent invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan have often been portrayed on the international scene as a liberation of women. The same argument was used during the french colonization of Algeria. In fact, not all examples of such pattern claim to be feminist: throughout the history of colonization, "educating" the "less-civilized" people has been a recurring theme.
- BrandoElFollito 5y ago
  > including in France where despite separation of church and State (at least on paper) in 1905, until at least 2010 it was illegal for women to wear trousers. You surely know that this is one of this silly law that was in place but nobody even thought of enforcing it (of they knew about it at all). It is like the law in some US city where b it is forbidden to attach a giraffe to a lamp pole. I presume you are French. If so, can you state that the freedom of women in a cité is the same as in the proverbial Versailles I mentioned earlier?
  - southerntofu 5y ago
    > nobody even thought of enforcing it That's definitely not true. It was enforced in most places until a few decades ago, and despite the law having been repelled, some variant of it is still enforced in many jobs. In big IT consulting firms just as in the sales/services industry, a woman is expected to wear makeup and a female suit (tailleur). > the freedom of women in a cité is the same as in the proverbial Versailles Context for outsider readers: in the french context, a "cité" has come to mean overpopulated suburban area where the government parks all the undesirables: immigrants, muslims... There are some white people in the cités but usually they're not french (or their parents were not when they moved in). Especially since Sarkozy, there's been a growing tendency in mainstream media and far-right propaganda to designate these neighborhoods as lawless places out of which nothing good can come, and where women are supposedly more oppressed than in the rest of our deeply sexist french society. I cannot say anyone's freedom is "the same" as someone else, because we have different cultural backgrounds and aspirations. What i can say is that patriarchy is very much alive all across France. So i'm not saying there's no codes in regards to how a woman "should" behave in a popular district. However, contrary to popular (racist) expectations, there may be more leeway for a lower-class non-white woman in france in 2021 than for a daughter of a white bourgeois family from Versailles. Indeed, despite a potential pressure from tradition, a proletarian woman will usually (there are exceptions) be encouraged to study and find a better job than her parents. I've rarely hung out with bourgeois people, but from what i could see they had less to gain, and were more preoccupied with founding a family than anything else. Take it with a grain of salt because that's anecdotal data. Also, you may be surprised how women dress in popular districts. It's not all niqabs, you know. Of course every district has a different culture and tolerance in this regard, but i can tell you some women dress just as "sexy" as in big cities like Marseille or Toulouse. Of course, strong independent women from popular districts is never what the media will portray, unless it's intended as a full-blown contrast to their surroundings.
    - BrandoElFollito 5y ago
      > That's definitely not true. It was enforced in most places until a few decades ago ??? The law was from 1800 and nobody really knew about it until 2013 when it was abolished. Please provide me one case where the law was applied. > In big IT consulting firms just as in the sales/services industry, a woman is expected to wear makeup and a female suit (tailleur). The same way a man is expected to wear a suit. > However, contrary to popular (racist) expectations, there may be more leeway for a lower-class non-white woman in france in 2021 than for a daughter of a white bourgeois family from Versailles. Indeed, despite a potential pressure from tradition, a proletarian woman will usually (there are exceptions) be encouraged to study and find a better job than her parents. I've rarely hung out with bourgeois people, but from what i could see they had less to gain, and were more preoccupied with founding a family than anything else. Take it with a grain of salt because that's anecdotal data. Let me give you the point of view of someone who i) knows well the cités and ii) knows very, very well the "bourgeois" population of Versailles (as you call it). You seem to be French so you may have actually gone in a cité. I recommend La Courneuve which I know well , or Epinay. The women I actually know from there are under a TREMENDOUS pressure to adhere to the rules of the Muslim population. Now have a look at the Versailles high school Hoche. In the top 5 schools in France, the essence of "bourgeoisie". Have a look at how the people there behave and how diverse they are. Mostly white, but also Asian and Indian. If you knew that population a bit more you could see how they behave - and they behave perfectly, surprisingly especially towards minorities. But to know that you have to actually know these people. And also know people from the cités, closely.

southerntofu 5y ago

> compulsory hijabs only exist in muslim countries Yet many muslim countries don't make it compulsory. But you will find regulation of women's dress in most other non-muslim countries, including in France where despite separation of church and State (at least on paper) in 1905, until at least 2010 it was illegal for women to wear trousers. To take another example from my own country, it is highly arguable that police harassing women in burkini to dress less is just as much patriarchal as Iran's moral police harassing women to dress more. > Maybe in France, towards French muslims. I talked about France because that's the situation i know best, from first-hand experiences. However, it's also true on an international level, and there's an entire field of feminist studies dedicating to studying this "imperial feminism" phenomenon: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_feminism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_feminism For example, the somewhat-recent invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan have often been portrayed on the international scene as a liberation of women. The same argument was used during the french colonization of Algeria. In fact, not all examples of such pattern claim to be feminist: throughout the history of colonization, "educating" the "less-civilized" people has been a recurring theme.

BrandoElFollito 5y ago
> including in France where despite separation of church and State (at least on paper) in 1905, until at least 2010 it was illegal for women to wear trousers. You surely know that this is one of this silly law that was in place but nobody even thought of enforcing it (of they knew about it at all). It is like the law in some US city where b it is forbidden to attach a giraffe to a lamp pole. I presume you are French. If so, can you state that the freedom of women in a cité is the same as in the proverbial Versailles I mentioned earlier?
- southerntofu 5y ago
  > nobody even thought of enforcing it That's definitely not true. It was enforced in most places until a few decades ago, and despite the law having been repelled, some variant of it is still enforced in many jobs. In big IT consulting firms just as in the sales/services industry, a woman is expected to wear makeup and a female suit (tailleur). > the freedom of women in a cité is the same as in the proverbial Versailles Context for outsider readers: in the french context, a "cité" has come to mean overpopulated suburban area where the government parks all the undesirables: immigrants, muslims... There are some white people in the cités but usually they're not french (or their parents were not when they moved in). Especially since Sarkozy, there's been a growing tendency in mainstream media and far-right propaganda to designate these neighborhoods as lawless places out of which nothing good can come, and where women are supposedly more oppressed than in the rest of our deeply sexist french society. I cannot say anyone's freedom is "the same" as someone else, because we have different cultural backgrounds and aspirations. What i can say is that patriarchy is very much alive all across France. So i'm not saying there's no codes in regards to how a woman "should" behave in a popular district. However, contrary to popular (racist) expectations, there may be more leeway for a lower-class non-white woman in france in 2021 than for a daughter of a white bourgeois family from Versailles. Indeed, despite a potential pressure from tradition, a proletarian woman will usually (there are exceptions) be encouraged to study and find a better job than her parents. I've rarely hung out with bourgeois people, but from what i could see they had less to gain, and were more preoccupied with founding a family than anything else. Take it with a grain of salt because that's anecdotal data. Also, you may be surprised how women dress in popular districts. It's not all niqabs, you know. Of course every district has a different culture and tolerance in this regard, but i can tell you some women dress just as "sexy" as in big cities like Marseille or Toulouse. Of course, strong independent women from popular districts is never what the media will portray, unless it's intended as a full-blown contrast to their surroundings.
  - BrandoElFollito 5y ago
    > That's definitely not true. It was enforced in most places until a few decades ago ??? The law was from 1800 and nobody really knew about it until 2013 when it was abolished. Please provide me one case where the law was applied. > In big IT consulting firms just as in the sales/services industry, a woman is expected to wear makeup and a female suit (tailleur). The same way a man is expected to wear a suit. > However, contrary to popular (racist) expectations, there may be more leeway for a lower-class non-white woman in france in 2021 than for a daughter of a white bourgeois family from Versailles. Indeed, despite a potential pressure from tradition, a proletarian woman will usually (there are exceptions) be encouraged to study and find a better job than her parents. I've rarely hung out with bourgeois people, but from what i could see they had less to gain, and were more preoccupied with founding a family than anything else. Take it with a grain of salt because that's anecdotal data. Let me give you the point of view of someone who i) knows well the cités and ii) knows very, very well the "bourgeois" population of Versailles (as you call it). You seem to be French so you may have actually gone in a cité. I recommend La Courneuve which I know well , or Epinay. The women I actually know from there are under a TREMENDOUS pressure to adhere to the rules of the Muslim population. Now have a look at the Versailles high school Hoche. In the top 5 schools in France, the essence of "bourgeoisie". Have a look at how the people there behave and how diverse they are. Mostly white, but also Asian and Indian. If you knew that population a bit more you could see how they behave - and they behave perfectly, surprisingly especially towards minorities. But to know that you have to actually know these people. And also know people from the cités, closely.