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The US is absolutely shooting for herd immunity now. Its just a question of how individual members of the herd want to achieve their immunity. They can take the

The US is absolutely shooting for herd immunity now. Its just a question of how individual members of the herd want to achieve their immunity. They can take the easy way (vaccination) or the hard way (get Covid).

loceng 5y ago
Vaccine isn't necessarily easy for everyone, and catching COVID isn't necessarily hard for everyone; and underlying health condition seems to be primary determinant of that, not vaccination status. Edit to add: feel good about downvoting critical thinking, ideologues.
- bena 5y ago
  That seems like the stupidest lottery to enter into however. Even people without an "underlying health condition" have died. And even those who haven't died are experiencing long term complications from having had COVID. So you can either hope you don't have a hard time with COVID if you catch it. Or you can drastically reduce your chances of having a hard time and of catching it all by just taking a couple minutes out of your day to get vaccinated. Sorry, while I do like to gamble in general, if the penalties include death and/or permanent disability, I'm going with the option that makes that less likely. Which is the vaccine.
  - VBprogrammer 5y ago
    I have two people on my team who are both in their mid-20s. Both have had covid in the last couple of weeks, one hadn't had his vaccine the other only his first dose. The one without ended up in hospital for 2 weeks and was very nearly intubated. The other had a mild cough and has happily worked through it. I know which one I'd pick.
    - loceng 5y ago
      And without in-depth diagnostics to know both parties health state (not just shallow visual "they look healthy/are active") then you're making huge assumption as to if it was result of vaccine or not; and that ideology, lack of critical thinking, is why society is in the state we're; this will get downvoted too if it gets any exposure, another sign society is askew - because I'm correct in my statement but people who are ideological don't like being proven wrong.
      - bena 5y ago
        Are we doing "in-depth diagnostics" of everyone? No. But based on statistical evidence alone, borne out by millions of data points, not a single solitary anecdote, the vaccine works to protect you from the worse of COVID if you catch it at all. You decry a "lack of critical thinking", but don't apply any yourself. It's just a cudgel to you to use against people who don't agree with you. Consider the simple fact that you may be wrong. And look at you, boosting every huckster claim but ignoring the one thing that is shown to work on a large scale. Would it soothe your feelings if we just said the vaccine was an ivermectin hcq cocktail? Because it looks like you want to "them" to be wrong more than anything else.
      - VBprogrammer 5y ago
        From an individual point of view, where are you going to go for a in-depth health assessment? Presumably the same doctor who would recommend in the strongest terms that you get the vaccine unless you have a history of certain clotting disorders or are using particular medication. Unless you seek out a doctor on the fringes of established medical fact.
  - aantix 5y ago
    >Even people without an "underlying health condition" have died. This isn't a useful cohort. Age. Pre-existing conditions. Vitamin D deficiency. So many factors that narrow the funnel. You can narrow down your odds of complications with specificity - there's no need to discuss with these generalizations.
    - bena 5y ago
      The fact is that contracting COVID is the worst possible way to achieve protection from COVID. And at some point, you're just classifying everyone as having some sort of "factor". Which isn't useful either. If everyone has a factor, then factors don't matter. Especially if you have a factor that isn't obvious, like Vitamin D deficiency. And like I implied, healthy, young people have been hospitalized with COVID and some of those have died. Just like some with "factors" have done ok. But the one thing that reduces complications with a very, very high degree of success is the vaccine. It even reduces your chances of contracting the disease itself. Not getting the vaccine is entering yourself in the stupidest lottery in history.
  - nradov 5y ago
    Vaccines are great and very effective at preventing bad outcomes, but let's be realistic about risks. Very few people without an underlying health condition have died. 94.9% of hospitalizations had an underlying health condition. Mainly high blood pressure, obesity, and diabetes. https://www.cdc.gov/pcd/issues/2021/21_0123.htm https://www.cdc.gov/pcd/issues/2021/21_0123.htm 99% of deaths in Italy had an underlying health condition. https://www.bloombergquint.com/onweb/99-of-those-who-died-from-virus-had-other-illness-italy-says https://www.bloombergquint.com/onweb/99-of-those-who-died-fr...
    - bena 5y ago
      You do know that about half of all people in the U.S. classify as having hypertension, right? It's not uncommon. People who look perfectly healthy and feel like nothing is wrong can have it. You probably have it. So if we're being "realistic about risks", we have to acknowledge that roughly half of all people who get COVID are going to have at least one "underlying health condition".
- xienze 5y ago
  > Vaccine isn't necessarily easy for everyone, and catching COVID isn't necessarily hard for everyone There seems to be this prevailing belief that Covid infection == near certain death, when that's just not the case, but try explaining that...
- jMyles 5y ago
  I don't know why you're being downvoted. Established, tenured experts from every single one of the world's top medical institutions have expressed agreement with this statement (and also some in apparent opposition). Examples: * https://blogs.bmj.com/bmj/2021/05/07/covid-vaccines-for-children-should-not-get-emergency-use-authorization/ https://blogs.bmj.com/bmj/2021/05/07/covid-vaccines-for-chil... * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbvO4sUg1eA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbvO4sUg1eA (Gupta is a pioneer of theoretical epidemiology at Oxford and has broken ground on a new platform for generic influenza vaccination which is very exciting) * https://twitter.com/MartinKulldorff/status/1371638485686358018 https://twitter.com/MartinKulldorff/status/13716384856863580... (note: In addition to his decades at Harvard researching vaccine safety, Kulldorff served two terms on a CDC vaccine technical subgroup - he is certainly in the very top echelon of experts on the topic of your comment)
giantg2 5y ago
Not really. Officially and unofficially they are pushing everyone to the vaccine. People who have antibodies are still getting fired from their jobs because they didn't take the vaccine. There's even talk of requiring the vaccine for some schools, regardless of prior infection status. So the US is not shooting for herd immunity through either means, but only through vaccination. Even federal employees are being required to attest to their vaccinated status without similar options for those with antibodies acquired by other means.
- tshaddox 5y ago
  Pushing for near universal vaccination isn’t at odds with wanting herd immunity. Quite the opposite.
  - jampekka 5y ago
    Pushing for near universal vaccination isn't at odds with wanting to maximize pharma profits. Quite the opposite.
    - andruc 5y ago
      Was it not the case that most of the vaccine producers were providing them at cost?
      - jampekka 5y ago
        No. Not even close. https://www.oxfam.org/en/press-releases/vaccine-monopolies-make-cost-vaccinating-world-against-covid-least-5-times-more https://www.oxfam.org/en/press-releases/vaccine-monopolies-m...
    - Retric 5y ago
      Pharma makes more money on average from covid infections in the US than vaccinations.
  - giantg2 5y ago
    I'm saying that the parent's comment about pushing for herd immunity through both means is not exactly true. We are moving towards herd immunity by both methods unintentionally, but the only method being pushed is vaccination. So much so, that antibodies derived from infection are not even being counted, but rather those persons are being told they need the vaccine anyways. It's a bit like measuring outputs rather than outcomes.
flavius29663 5y ago
far from it https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#national-lab https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#national-lab

loceng 5y ago

Vaccine isn't necessarily easy for everyone, and catching COVID isn't necessarily hard for everyone; and underlying health condition seems to be primary determinant of that, not vaccination status. Edit to add: feel good about downvoting critical thinking, ideologues.

bena 5y ago
That seems like the stupidest lottery to enter into however. Even people without an "underlying health condition" have died. And even those who haven't died are experiencing long term complications from having had COVID. So you can either hope you don't have a hard time with COVID if you catch it. Or you can drastically reduce your chances of having a hard time and of catching it all by just taking a couple minutes out of your day to get vaccinated. Sorry, while I do like to gamble in general, if the penalties include death and/or permanent disability, I'm going with the option that makes that less likely. Which is the vaccine.
- VBprogrammer 5y ago
  I have two people on my team who are both in their mid-20s. Both have had covid in the last couple of weeks, one hadn't had his vaccine the other only his first dose. The one without ended up in hospital for 2 weeks and was very nearly intubated. The other had a mild cough and has happily worked through it. I know which one I'd pick.
  - loceng 5y ago
    And without in-depth diagnostics to know both parties health state (not just shallow visual "they look healthy/are active") then you're making huge assumption as to if it was result of vaccine or not; and that ideology, lack of critical thinking, is why society is in the state we're; this will get downvoted too if it gets any exposure, another sign society is askew - because I'm correct in my statement but people who are ideological don't like being proven wrong.
    - bena 5y ago
      Are we doing "in-depth diagnostics" of everyone? No. But based on statistical evidence alone, borne out by millions of data points, not a single solitary anecdote, the vaccine works to protect you from the worse of COVID if you catch it at all. You decry a "lack of critical thinking", but don't apply any yourself. It's just a cudgel to you to use against people who don't agree with you. Consider the simple fact that you may be wrong. And look at you, boosting every huckster claim but ignoring the one thing that is shown to work on a large scale. Would it soothe your feelings if we just said the vaccine was an ivermectin hcq cocktail? Because it looks like you want to "them" to be wrong more than anything else.
    - VBprogrammer 5y ago
      From an individual point of view, where are you going to go for a in-depth health assessment? Presumably the same doctor who would recommend in the strongest terms that you get the vaccine unless you have a history of certain clotting disorders or are using particular medication. Unless you seek out a doctor on the fringes of established medical fact.
- aantix 5y ago
  >Even people without an "underlying health condition" have died. This isn't a useful cohort. Age. Pre-existing conditions. Vitamin D deficiency. So many factors that narrow the funnel. You can narrow down your odds of complications with specificity - there's no need to discuss with these generalizations.
  - bena 5y ago
    The fact is that contracting COVID is the worst possible way to achieve protection from COVID. And at some point, you're just classifying everyone as having some sort of "factor". Which isn't useful either. If everyone has a factor, then factors don't matter. Especially if you have a factor that isn't obvious, like Vitamin D deficiency. And like I implied, healthy, young people have been hospitalized with COVID and some of those have died. Just like some with "factors" have done ok. But the one thing that reduces complications with a very, very high degree of success is the vaccine. It even reduces your chances of contracting the disease itself. Not getting the vaccine is entering yourself in the stupidest lottery in history.
- nradov 5y ago
  Vaccines are great and very effective at preventing bad outcomes, but let's be realistic about risks. Very few people without an underlying health condition have died. 94.9% of hospitalizations had an underlying health condition. Mainly high blood pressure, obesity, and diabetes. https://www.cdc.gov/pcd/issues/2021/21_0123.htm https://www.cdc.gov/pcd/issues/2021/21_0123.htm 99% of deaths in Italy had an underlying health condition. https://www.bloombergquint.com/onweb/99-of-those-who-died-from-virus-had-other-illness-italy-says https://www.bloombergquint.com/onweb/99-of-those-who-died-fr...
  - bena 5y ago
    You do know that about half of all people in the U.S. classify as having hypertension, right? It's not uncommon. People who look perfectly healthy and feel like nothing is wrong can have it. You probably have it. So if we're being "realistic about risks", we have to acknowledge that roughly half of all people who get COVID are going to have at least one "underlying health condition".
xienze 5y ago
> Vaccine isn't necessarily easy for everyone, and catching COVID isn't necessarily hard for everyone There seems to be this prevailing belief that Covid infection == near certain death, when that's just not the case, but try explaining that...
jMyles 5y ago
I don't know why you're being downvoted. Established, tenured experts from every single one of the world's top medical institutions have expressed agreement with this statement (and also some in apparent opposition). Examples: * https://blogs.bmj.com/bmj/2021/05/07/covid-vaccines-for-children-should-not-get-emergency-use-authorization/ https://blogs.bmj.com/bmj/2021/05/07/covid-vaccines-for-chil... * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbvO4sUg1eA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbvO4sUg1eA (Gupta is a pioneer of theoretical epidemiology at Oxford and has broken ground on a new platform for generic influenza vaccination which is very exciting) * https://twitter.com/MartinKulldorff/status/1371638485686358018 https://twitter.com/MartinKulldorff/status/13716384856863580... (note: In addition to his decades at Harvard researching vaccine safety, Kulldorff served two terms on a CDC vaccine technical subgroup - he is certainly in the very top echelon of experts on the topic of your comment)

giantg2 5y ago

Not really. Officially and unofficially they are pushing everyone to the vaccine. People who have antibodies are still getting fired from their jobs because they didn't take the vaccine. There's even talk of requiring the vaccine for some schools, regardless of prior infection status. So the US is not shooting for herd immunity through either means, but only through vaccination. Even federal employees are being required to attest to their vaccinated status without similar options for those with antibodies acquired by other means.

tshaddox 5y ago
Pushing for near universal vaccination isn’t at odds with wanting herd immunity. Quite the opposite.
- jampekka 5y ago
  Pushing for near universal vaccination isn't at odds with wanting to maximize pharma profits. Quite the opposite.
  - andruc 5y ago
    Was it not the case that most of the vaccine producers were providing them at cost?
    - jampekka 5y ago
      No. Not even close. https://www.oxfam.org/en/press-releases/vaccine-monopolies-make-cost-vaccinating-world-against-covid-least-5-times-more https://www.oxfam.org/en/press-releases/vaccine-monopolies-m...
  - Retric 5y ago
    Pharma makes more money on average from covid infections in the US than vaccinations.
- giantg2 5y ago
  I'm saying that the parent's comment about pushing for herd immunity through both means is not exactly true. We are moving towards herd immunity by both methods unintentionally, but the only method being pushed is vaccination. So much so, that antibodies derived from infection are not even being counted, but rather those persons are being told they need the vaccine anyways. It's a bit like measuring outputs rather than outcomes.

flavius29663 5y ago

far from it https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#national-lab https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#national-lab