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This is classic libertarian thinking, and I used to subscribe to it, at least to some extent. The more you think about it, though, the more it doesn't hold up.

This is classic libertarian thinking, and I used to subscribe to it, at least to some extent. The more you think about it, though, the more it doesn't hold up. It's just undeniably true that individual freedoms exist only to the extent that society allows them to. To think that you can opt out of society is fantasy. It's in everybody's best interest to make sure society works well for everyone, and that kind of thinking pushes you back to the political center.

roenxi 5y ago
The observation that it is in everyone's interest for society to function is a core plank of libertarian thinking. If everyone was going to opt out then libertarianism would not work. The core argument is that the government doesn't need to step in to fix society, because the incentives are so strong that society will sort itself out through people realising that if the ship sinks they will drown so they have to keep the water outside the boat of their own initiative. Given that it is already in everyone's interest that the ship floats, the people loudly claiming "our enemies are trying to sink the ship!" are probably lying and should not be put in charge. However, such people infest government.
- opheliate 5y ago
  IMO the ship "sinking/floating" analogy is far too simplistic for this discussion. Everyone has a different idea of what the ship "floating" looks like: If you're someone with a lot of wealth, the current state of things might look completely reasonable. If you're very poor, the fact that 0.1% of people control 25% of the world's wealth might look a lot less like society is functioning correctly. Society could easily "sort itself out" into a stable state which happily oppresses a great many people, just based on individual incentives.
  - roenxi 5y ago
    If you're worried about people being oppressed, moving away from basic principles of freedom and liberty is probably not the path you want to take. If libertarianism would result in a great many oppressed people, any sort of centralisation of power will result in even more oppressed people. Beefing up government power is no solution to oppression; the worst oppressors are invariably governments. The worst of the great catastrophes and oppression of the last century were perpetrated by strong centralised governments.
    - opheliate 5y ago
      > The worst of the great catastrophes and oppression of the last century were perpetrated by strong centralised governments. Absolutely. It's a good thing I'm not calling for massively beefing up government then, I'm just advocating that tax laws exist & are enforced, so as to redistribute wealth, which I don't view as oppressive. > If libertarianism would result in a great many oppressed people, any sort of centralisation of power will result in even more oppressed people. I disagree with the implied premise that there is not a "centralisation of power" under libertarianism. While there isn't a state to have a monopoly on violence, there can certainly be a centralisation of economic power. And when we rely on money to pay rent, afford food, pay for healthcare etc, economic power is functionally equivalent to power in general. > the worst oppressors are invariably governments I wouldn't say invariably. Consider the United Fruit Company for example, or the current prevalence of child labour in tech company supply chains (e.g: Glencore, Zhejiang Huayou Cobalt).
      - ninja3925 5y ago
        > I'm just advocating that tax laws exist & are enforced, so as to redistribute wealth, which I don't view as oppressive Laws are strongly enforced in this country (USA). Where is the bar for "oppressive"? I come from a country that thought that 70%+ taxation was acceptable. In the USA, we are now at 60%+ (across federal, state, local). It sure sounds oppressive to me and one way out is to give the choice to people to opt out.
        opheliate 5y ago
        Do you have a source for the 60%+ number? I think paying 60% tax or higher on income above a certain threshold (e.g: $300,000, just throwing a number out there, so you'd pay 60% tax on $1 if you were earning $300,001, and a lower tax rate for the lower portion) is reasonable. Regardless, sure, one way is to give the choice to opt out, another is just to lower taxes if it's generally agreed they're too high.
        PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago
        That 60% tax number is false. What country ever taxes at 70% overall? The US used to have federal income upper marginal rates in the 90% range, but that doesn't mean that you pay 90% of your income as tax.
ytNumbers 5y ago
> To think that you can opt out of society is fantasy. It seems to me that the wealthy who leave the country and renounce their citizenship are effectively opting out of society. It's not a fantasy for the wealthy. We live in a competitive world where people have freedom of movement. The wealthy will tend to go where they are treated best. I think society works well for everyone when the government keeps the tax rates reasonable. Over time, a government kleptocracy causes horrific suffering for the vast majority of people.
- goodpoint 5y ago
  > are effectively opting out of society No: they get to choose which society to live in and which legal system gives them less trouble. Everybody else has little choice.

roenxi 5y ago

The observation that it is in everyone's interest for society to function is a core plank of libertarian thinking. If everyone was going to opt out then libertarianism would not work. The core argument is that the government doesn't need to step in to fix society, because the incentives are so strong that society will sort itself out through people realising that if the ship sinks they will drown so they have to keep the water outside the boat of their own initiative. Given that it is already in everyone's interest that the ship floats, the people loudly claiming "our enemies are trying to sink the ship!" are probably lying and should not be put in charge. However, such people infest government.

opheliate 5y ago
IMO the ship "sinking/floating" analogy is far too simplistic for this discussion. Everyone has a different idea of what the ship "floating" looks like: If you're someone with a lot of wealth, the current state of things might look completely reasonable. If you're very poor, the fact that 0.1% of people control 25% of the world's wealth might look a lot less like society is functioning correctly. Society could easily "sort itself out" into a stable state which happily oppresses a great many people, just based on individual incentives.
- roenxi 5y ago
  If you're worried about people being oppressed, moving away from basic principles of freedom and liberty is probably not the path you want to take. If libertarianism would result in a great many oppressed people, any sort of centralisation of power will result in even more oppressed people. Beefing up government power is no solution to oppression; the worst oppressors are invariably governments. The worst of the great catastrophes and oppression of the last century were perpetrated by strong centralised governments.
  - opheliate 5y ago
    > The worst of the great catastrophes and oppression of the last century were perpetrated by strong centralised governments. Absolutely. It's a good thing I'm not calling for massively beefing up government then, I'm just advocating that tax laws exist & are enforced, so as to redistribute wealth, which I don't view as oppressive. > If libertarianism would result in a great many oppressed people, any sort of centralisation of power will result in even more oppressed people. I disagree with the implied premise that there is not a "centralisation of power" under libertarianism. While there isn't a state to have a monopoly on violence, there can certainly be a centralisation of economic power. And when we rely on money to pay rent, afford food, pay for healthcare etc, economic power is functionally equivalent to power in general. > the worst oppressors are invariably governments I wouldn't say invariably. Consider the United Fruit Company for example, or the current prevalence of child labour in tech company supply chains (e.g: Glencore, Zhejiang Huayou Cobalt).
    - ninja3925 5y ago
      > I'm just advocating that tax laws exist & are enforced, so as to redistribute wealth, which I don't view as oppressive Laws are strongly enforced in this country (USA). Where is the bar for "oppressive"? I come from a country that thought that 70%+ taxation was acceptable. In the USA, we are now at 60%+ (across federal, state, local). It sure sounds oppressive to me and one way out is to give the choice to people to opt out.
      - opheliate 5y ago
        Do you have a source for the 60%+ number? I think paying 60% tax or higher on income above a certain threshold (e.g: $300,000, just throwing a number out there, so you'd pay 60% tax on $1 if you were earning $300,001, and a lower tax rate for the lower portion) is reasonable. Regardless, sure, one way is to give the choice to opt out, another is just to lower taxes if it's generally agreed they're too high.
      - PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago
        That 60% tax number is false. What country ever taxes at 70% overall? The US used to have federal income upper marginal rates in the 90% range, but that doesn't mean that you pay 90% of your income as tax.

ytNumbers 5y ago

> To think that you can opt out of society is fantasy. It seems to me that the wealthy who leave the country and renounce their citizenship are effectively opting out of society. It's not a fantasy for the wealthy. We live in a competitive world where people have freedom of movement. The wealthy will tend to go where they are treated best. I think society works well for everyone when the government keeps the tax rates reasonable. Over time, a government kleptocracy causes horrific suffering for the vast majority of people.

goodpoint 5y ago
> are effectively opting out of society No: they get to choose which society to live in and which legal system gives them less trouble. Everybody else has little choice.