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Vaccine requirements have been in place for decades. For pre-K in NYC kids need shots for PCV and Hib. For kindergarten they need more shots: Hep B, Polio, Ch

by clukic 5y ago

Vaccine requirements have been in place for decades. For pre-K in NYC kids need shots for PCV and Hib. For kindergarten they need more shots: Hep B, Polio, Chickenpox, and Measles, Mumps and Rubella. Going to middle school? Then you'll need more shots, the TDAP and meningococcal conjugate. These are all vaccine requirements. Is it an invasion or privacy to demand children's records? Is it the nanny state? We could go down that road, but who wants to live in a world where we lose herd immunity to all of those diseases because 30-40% of people choose to opt their children out?

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
ashtonkem 5y ago
Honestly, I think a lot of people here without kids have absolutely no idea that you need to prove immunization in order to attend school. What’s funnier still to me is men (it always seems to be men) outraged that they might need to prove vaccination in order to send their kids back to school, publicly admitting that they’ve been fobbing that work off on their spouse.
- bingohbangoh 5y ago
  People know. They know, if anything, because you need to be vaccinated to attend colleges. The issue is that this vaccine is not FDA approved. A vaccine that provides for only a year is hardly the same as a booster shot which is good for 10 iirc.
  - karmelapple 5y ago
    Reading this, I wondered what might be keeping it from being fully FDA approved. I found this article explains it well: https://www.forbes.com/sites/leahrosenbaum/2021/07/30/why-hasnt-the-fda-fully-approved-any-covid-19-vaccines-yet/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/leahrosenbaum/2021/07/30/why-ha... A few quotes I thought were noteworthy: > For emergency authorization, the FDA required two months of safety data versus six months for full approval, he explains. > Pfizer submitted its application on May 7 and was granted special priority review status on July 16. In a press release, the company said the decision whether to fully approve the vaccine should come by January 2022. Other reports suggest Pfizer’s approval will likely be sooner, possibly as early as the start of the school year. > As you might expect, clinical trial data is scrutinized, but the process involves more than just experts reading data. The FDA also inspects manufacturing facilities and meets many times with company executives. > "I think a lot of us are baffled why the FDA is taking so long.” - Ashish Jha, dean of the Brown University School of Public Health > To that end, the agency has reportedly expedited the process, even deprioritizing other projects in order to accelerate the timeline. That last sentence struck me strangely, seeming to imply reprioritizing other projects was a big deal. We're still in a global pandemic, people are still dying here in the USA, and the economic realities still actively happening... yeah, I think deprioritizing other things is about the least surprising thing imaginable.
  - _ph_ 5y ago
    The vaccines have full approval here in the EU. Thats why we got the vaccines 2 months later than the US. It is also not clear, how long the vaccines protect. Some part of the immune response is considered to be quite long-term, only the antibody-count falls quicker. The thing is: we lack precise data here and we have an ongoing pandemic. Once the pandemic is over, it is much safer to explore how long we can set the interval for booster shots.
  - ashtonkem 5y ago
    It’s time to move these vaccines up into regular approval, for a variety of reasons. This is probably the most scrutinized vaccine ever, keeping it in emergency use is mistake. > A vaccine that provides for only a year is hardly the same as a booster shot which is good for 10 iirc. As compared to the flu shot? The one that I’ve been given for free in every school and workplace I’ve attended in the past twenty years? Logistically, yearly shots are nbd. Maybe we should make flu shots mandatory for education just like the MMR shot, given the number of kids killed by the flu every year.
    - chana_masala 5y ago
      > This is probably the most scrutinized vaccine ever Not in terms of long term data, at all
      - ashtonkem 5y ago
        What exactly are you expecting to happen, for the vaccine to turn around and kill 600,000 Americans?
        chana_masala 5y ago
        Over a long period of time anything is possible.
        deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
        ashtonkem 5y ago
        Isn’t this just an argument for nihilism? Over a long time anything is possible, but that’s not an excuse to ignore the data that we have right here and now. Never mind that there will never be a point where there isn’t a “long period of time” in front of us, which becomes a convenient excuse for permanent inaction. Also, anything being possible is not the same as anything being probable. The vaccine might make me grow a third arm too, after all anything is possible in the long run, but you would laugh if I said that I wasn’t getting a vaccine for the fear of my tailoring bill.
- MattGaiser 5y ago
  Is it required or can you just sign a waiver and get out of it for religious/personal/health without a doctor reasons? Or is the documentation required easily forgeable?
  - ashtonkem 5y ago
    Depends on the state. My college’s policies were set by state law. A doctor has to sign a record for a religious exemption, which probably reduced the number of people taking it significantly. Faking it never crossed my mind, because duh.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- moralestapia 5y ago
  Your argument is fine in itself, the sexist remark is unnecessary.
busymom0 5y ago
No, you are bringing up extreme examples. Other vaccines: > It is not known how long people who received IPV will be immune to poliovirus, but they are most likely protected for many years after a complete series of IPV. >Measles vaccines became available in 1963. If you got the standard two doses of the measles, mumps, and rubella (MMR) vaccine after 1967, you should be protected against the measles for life. >Several studies have shown that people vaccinated against varicella (chickenpox) had antibodies for at least 10 to 20 years after vaccination. Covid vaccine in Israel is showing to lose efficacy down to just 16 percent in just 6 months. People who have already gotten covid infection are extremely unlikely to get it again and some reports are saying that they have stronger immunity than vaccinated ones. This is not the case for things like polio, chicken pox, measles etc. Plus based on Israel, the vaccine is also losing efficacy after 3-6 months so they are giving a 3rd shot now. That's not the case with polio and other vaccines which provide a lifetime protection. Also comparing going to restaurant with going to school is absurd.
- clukic 5y ago
  You can't catch polio twice. And chicken pox is pretty similar to covid actually. It has a similar R value, and adults who catch it can be hospitalized, but for children it's usually not as serious. And once you've had chicken pox you have strong immunity, although you can still get some of the symptoms if exposed. As for comparing restaurant and school. Schools are publicly funded and mandated by the state. No one has to go to a restaurant.
- favorited 5y ago
  > based on Israel, the vaccine is also losing efficacy after 3-6 months so they are giving a 3rd shot now A study[0] released last week shows that the Pfizer vaccine's effectiveness is still in the high 80s/low 90s after 6 months, and still 97% effective at preventing severe symptoms and hospitalizations. When compared to the annual flu vaccine, where the VE typically falls in the 30s and 40s, this vaccine is remarkably effective, even after 6 months. [0] https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.28.21261159v1 https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.28.21261159v...
  - 5y ago
Overton-Window 5y ago
Blatant false equivalence. All of those are FDA approved.
walterbell 5y ago
Early (i.e. existing) Covid vaccines are NON-STERILIZING, unlike almost every vaccine given to kids. There are sterilizing Covid vaccines in development, e,g. delivered nasally directly to the upper respiratory tract, but none have yet reached the market. https://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=243127 https://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=243127 > To be sterilizing a vaccine must prevent infection. Since you never get infected you never replicate the virus and thus do not shed it. If you do not shed it the potential path of the viral life-cycle for that particular infection ends with you and thus you cannot pass on or cause a mutation. You are sterile against that disease; from the point of view of the virus you are a lifeless rock. Among commonly-used sterilizing vaccines are MMR (measles, mumps and rubella), Varicella (chicken pox), OPV (oral polio) and others. The only time that such a vaccine fails is when you do not build immunity (such as due to immune compromise.) This is extremely rare and the protection from such vaccines tends to be either decades-long or lifetime. > A vaccine that is not sterilizing permits the virus to infect you and replicate and as a result you can infect others. Technically it is not a vaccine at all (which by definition prevents infection); it is a prophylactic therapy. Such a "vaccine" instead acts to reduce or eliminate symptomatic disease. You don't know you're sick and you don't get sick. You don't go to the hospital and you don't die. Unfortunately since you don't know you're sick but are infected and the virus is both replicating in you and shedding you are more-likely to spread the infection to others. All of the current Covid jabs are in this category and so is, for that matter IPV (injected polio vaccine -- the original Salk discovery.) > During the original vaccine trials in the summer and fall of 2020 they deliberately did not test any of the recipients for asymptomatic infections. Only a person who developed a significant illness was tested. This has continued post roll-out with the CDC specifying that a close contact of a known case who was vaccinated did not need to quarantine or be tested until and unless they became symptomatic. They knew damn well, in other words, that the jabs were not sterilizing but did not want that data up for public debate because then those who have read history would be likely to make the connection to the present day and thus they did their level best to hide it. That has now blown up in their face with it being conclusively known that jabbed people in fact not only get infected but spread the virus to others. > ... natural infection with Covid-19 is sterilizing. Being infected and recovering conserves the nasal and respiratory mucosal response which is where the virus enters the body.
99_00 5y ago
I'm not American, but from the American news I watch a significant % of the population doesn't have the ability to get government ID. If they can't get that, how are they going to get vaccinated and maintain those records?
- pb7 5y ago
  11% of Americans don't have government-issued ID. Not "don't have the ability" to get ID but don't have ID. They can get it with ease. Once we hit 89% vaccination rate then we can worry about that.
  - 99_00 5y ago
    If that was true, why would voter ID be such a big issue that corporations are boycotting jurisdictions who enact it?
    - atomicUpdate 5y ago
      Virtue signaling. The same thing that drives most of Twitter.
      - 99_00 5y ago
        But why is opposing basic election security a virtue?
        Zpalmtree 5y ago
        Illegals tend to vote a specific way
shinyamagami 5y ago
If the amount of taking vaccines, drugs, and paying medical services determine our good health, people in the US would be the healthiest ones, and they are not... Is it because they don't take many or much enough?

by clukic 5y ago

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

ashtonkem 5y ago

Honestly, I think a lot of people here without kids have absolutely no idea that you need to prove immunization in order to attend school. What’s funnier still to me is men (it always seems to be men) outraged that they might need to prove vaccination in order to send their kids back to school, publicly admitting that they’ve been fobbing that work off on their spouse.

bingohbangoh 5y ago
People know. They know, if anything, because you need to be vaccinated to attend colleges. The issue is that this vaccine is not FDA approved. A vaccine that provides for only a year is hardly the same as a booster shot which is good for 10 iirc.
- karmelapple 5y ago
  Reading this, I wondered what might be keeping it from being fully FDA approved. I found this article explains it well: https://www.forbes.com/sites/leahrosenbaum/2021/07/30/why-hasnt-the-fda-fully-approved-any-covid-19-vaccines-yet/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/leahrosenbaum/2021/07/30/why-ha... A few quotes I thought were noteworthy: > For emergency authorization, the FDA required two months of safety data versus six months for full approval, he explains. > Pfizer submitted its application on May 7 and was granted special priority review status on July 16. In a press release, the company said the decision whether to fully approve the vaccine should come by January 2022. Other reports suggest Pfizer’s approval will likely be sooner, possibly as early as the start of the school year. > As you might expect, clinical trial data is scrutinized, but the process involves more than just experts reading data. The FDA also inspects manufacturing facilities and meets many times with company executives. > "I think a lot of us are baffled why the FDA is taking so long.” - Ashish Jha, dean of the Brown University School of Public Health > To that end, the agency has reportedly expedited the process, even deprioritizing other projects in order to accelerate the timeline. That last sentence struck me strangely, seeming to imply reprioritizing other projects was a big deal. We're still in a global pandemic, people are still dying here in the USA, and the economic realities still actively happening... yeah, I think deprioritizing other things is about the least surprising thing imaginable.
- _ph_ 5y ago
  The vaccines have full approval here in the EU. Thats why we got the vaccines 2 months later than the US. It is also not clear, how long the vaccines protect. Some part of the immune response is considered to be quite long-term, only the antibody-count falls quicker. The thing is: we lack precise data here and we have an ongoing pandemic. Once the pandemic is over, it is much safer to explore how long we can set the interval for booster shots.
- ashtonkem 5y ago
  It’s time to move these vaccines up into regular approval, for a variety of reasons. This is probably the most scrutinized vaccine ever, keeping it in emergency use is mistake. > A vaccine that provides for only a year is hardly the same as a booster shot which is good for 10 iirc. As compared to the flu shot? The one that I’ve been given for free in every school and workplace I’ve attended in the past twenty years? Logistically, yearly shots are nbd. Maybe we should make flu shots mandatory for education just like the MMR shot, given the number of kids killed by the flu every year.
  - chana_masala 5y ago
    > This is probably the most scrutinized vaccine ever Not in terms of long term data, at all
    - ashtonkem 5y ago
      What exactly are you expecting to happen, for the vaccine to turn around and kill 600,000 Americans?
      - chana_masala 5y ago
        Over a long period of time anything is possible.
        deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
        ashtonkem 5y ago
        Isn’t this just an argument for nihilism? Over a long time anything is possible, but that’s not an excuse to ignore the data that we have right here and now. Never mind that there will never be a point where there isn’t a “long period of time” in front of us, which becomes a convenient excuse for permanent inaction. Also, anything being possible is not the same as anything being probable. The vaccine might make me grow a third arm too, after all anything is possible in the long run, but you would laugh if I said that I wasn’t getting a vaccine for the fear of my tailoring bill.
MattGaiser 5y ago
Is it required or can you just sign a waiver and get out of it for religious/personal/health without a doctor reasons? Or is the documentation required easily forgeable?
- ashtonkem 5y ago
  Depends on the state. My college’s policies were set by state law. A doctor has to sign a record for a religious exemption, which probably reduced the number of people taking it significantly. Faking it never crossed my mind, because duh.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
moralestapia 5y ago
Your argument is fine in itself, the sexist remark is unnecessary.

busymom0 5y ago

No, you are bringing up extreme examples. Other vaccines: > It is not known how long people who received IPV will be immune to poliovirus, but they are most likely protected for many years after a complete series of IPV. >Measles vaccines became available in 1963. If you got the standard two doses of the measles, mumps, and rubella (MMR) vaccine after 1967, you should be protected against the measles for life. >Several studies have shown that people vaccinated against varicella (chickenpox) had antibodies for at least 10 to 20 years after vaccination. Covid vaccine in Israel is showing to lose efficacy down to just 16 percent in just 6 months. People who have already gotten covid infection are extremely unlikely to get it again and some reports are saying that they have stronger immunity than vaccinated ones. This is not the case for things like polio, chicken pox, measles etc. Plus based on Israel, the vaccine is also losing efficacy after 3-6 months so they are giving a 3rd shot now. That's not the case with polio and other vaccines which provide a lifetime protection. Also comparing going to restaurant with going to school is absurd.

clukic 5y ago
You can't catch polio twice. And chicken pox is pretty similar to covid actually. It has a similar R value, and adults who catch it can be hospitalized, but for children it's usually not as serious. And once you've had chicken pox you have strong immunity, although you can still get some of the symptoms if exposed. As for comparing restaurant and school. Schools are publicly funded and mandated by the state. No one has to go to a restaurant.
favorited 5y ago
> based on Israel, the vaccine is also losing efficacy after 3-6 months so they are giving a 3rd shot now A study[0] released last week shows that the Pfizer vaccine's effectiveness is still in the high 80s/low 90s after 6 months, and still 97% effective at preventing severe symptoms and hospitalizations. When compared to the annual flu vaccine, where the VE typically falls in the 30s and 40s, this vaccine is remarkably effective, even after 6 months. [0] https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.28.21261159v1 https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.28.21261159v...
- 5y ago

Overton-Window 5y ago

Blatant false equivalence. All of those are FDA approved.

walterbell 5y ago

Early (i.e. existing) Covid vaccines are NON-STERILIZING, unlike almost every vaccine given to kids. There are sterilizing Covid vaccines in development, e,g. delivered nasally directly to the upper respiratory tract, but none have yet reached the market. https://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=243127 https://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=243127 > To be sterilizing a vaccine must prevent infection. Since you never get infected you never replicate the virus and thus do not shed it. If you do not shed it the potential path of the viral life-cycle for that particular infection ends with you and thus you cannot pass on or cause a mutation. You are sterile against that disease; from the point of view of the virus you are a lifeless rock. Among commonly-used sterilizing vaccines are MMR (measles, mumps and rubella), Varicella (chicken pox), OPV (oral polio) and others. The only time that such a vaccine fails is when you do not build immunity (such as due to immune compromise.) This is extremely rare and the protection from such vaccines tends to be either decades-long or lifetime. > A vaccine that is not sterilizing permits the virus to infect you and replicate and as a result you can infect others. Technically it is not a vaccine at all (which by definition prevents infection); it is a prophylactic therapy. Such a "vaccine" instead acts to reduce or eliminate symptomatic disease. You don't know you're sick and you don't get sick. You don't go to the hospital and you don't die. Unfortunately since you don't know you're sick but are infected and the virus is both replicating in you and shedding you are more-likely to spread the infection to others. All of the current Covid jabs are in this category and so is, for that matter IPV (injected polio vaccine -- the original Salk discovery.) > During the original vaccine trials in the summer and fall of 2020 they deliberately did not test any of the recipients for asymptomatic infections. Only a person who developed a significant illness was tested. This has continued post roll-out with the CDC specifying that a close contact of a known case who was vaccinated did not need to quarantine or be tested until and unless they became symptomatic. They knew damn well, in other words, that the jabs were not sterilizing but did not want that data up for public debate because then those who have read history would be likely to make the connection to the present day and thus they did their level best to hide it. That has now blown up in their face with it being conclusively known that jabbed people in fact not only get infected but spread the virus to others. > ... natural infection with Covid-19 is sterilizing. Being infected and recovering conserves the nasal and respiratory mucosal response which is where the virus enters the body.

99_00 5y ago

I'm not American, but from the American news I watch a significant % of the population doesn't have the ability to get government ID. If they can't get that, how are they going to get vaccinated and maintain those records?

pb7 5y ago
11% of Americans don't have government-issued ID. Not "don't have the ability" to get ID but don't have ID. They can get it with ease. Once we hit 89% vaccination rate then we can worry about that.
- 99_00 5y ago
  If that was true, why would voter ID be such a big issue that corporations are boycotting jurisdictions who enact it?
  - atomicUpdate 5y ago
    Virtue signaling. The same thing that drives most of Twitter.
    - 99_00 5y ago
      But why is opposing basic election security a virtue?
      - Zpalmtree 5y ago
        Illegals tend to vote a specific way

shinyamagami 5y ago

If the amount of taking vaccines, drugs, and paying medical services determine our good health, people in the US would be the healthiest ones, and they are not... Is it because they don't take many or much enough?