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No, sorry, you don’t get it to lump the Jewish people into this. It’s incredibly dishonest on your part to even go in that direction and you should feel embarra

No, sorry, you don’t get it to lump the Jewish people into this. It’s incredibly dishonest on your part to even go in that direction and you should feel embarrassment for trying to steer it towards that.

joelbluminator 5y ago
Steer what to where? Are you saying Israel's history and present are not connected to Jewish history and the 20th century atrocities? That's an extremely bizarre position to hold.
- luffapi 5y ago
  The Balfour Declaration was well before WWII. Israel was always a colonization project.
  - bzbarsky 5y ago
    Anti-semitism, including of the extremely violent variety, did not start with WWII. The Balfour Declaration was a response to Jews wanting to get the hell out of a Europe that hated them and liked to go kill them every so often.
    - luffapi 5y ago
      The Balfour Declaration was a request from a banker so powerful that he could order the British government to create a new colony. It has nothing to do with anti-semitism. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfour_Declaration https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfour_Declaration
      - joelbluminator 5y ago
        Why is the Balfour Declaration a main point in your argument? It could have not happen and yet Jews would still have been desperate to find a state of their own. I am not sure how it relates to anything besides it being a piccant topic (a powerful banker!)
        luffapi 5y ago
        The Balfour Declaration is the foundation of Israel, of course it should be the main point of any discussion of the region.
      - bzbarsky 5y ago
        > It has nothing to do with anti-semitism. Anti-semitism has nothing to do with the movement to create a homeland for the Jewish people (which then tried to garner the support of various governments, which is where the Balfour Declaration comes in)? It has everything to do with it. Were there various colonialism-related issues involved too, of course. But pretending like that's the entire story is quite disingenuous.
        luffapi 5y ago
        > create a homeland for the Jewish people This is clearly colonialism by definition. It’s the entire story because there is no justification for oppressing and colonizing others, even if the people doing it also face discrimination. It’s not an excuse and shouldn’t be part of the conversation.
        joelbluminator 5y ago
        Its really not though, the declaration never went into specifics on what parts will become Jewish exactly for this reason. It said a Jewish home IN Plaestine, not that all of Palestine will become Jewish. And even if it is "the definition of colonialism", what does it have to do with anything now?
        luffapi 5y ago
        A colony is the establishment of a new state on or in territory occupied by someone else. This is as textbook a case of colonialism as there is. > And even if it is "the definition of colonialism", what does it have to do with anything now? It’s literally the basis for every problem we’re discussing. Israel didn’t magically become not a colony, it’s enforced its apartheid state since it was created by western superpowers.
        joelbluminator 5y ago
        > A colony is the establishment of a new state on or in territory occupied by someone else That's you interpreting Balfour / Zionism the way you see fit, there were movements in Zionism that wanted to split the land, in fact the main movement wanted to split the land since 1937 for sure (agreeing to the Peel committee split plan) and maybe even before that. But the declaration itself just says - a national Jewish home in Palestine. There were unoccupied territories in Palestine 100 years ago. In fact there still are, even when this tiny land inhabits 15 million people and not just 1.5 millions like 100 years ago. If Balfour wanted to say explicitly that all of Palestine is to become Jewish he would have said so. It doesn't even say a state or a country, just a "national home". You're attributing to Balfour more than what was written.
- wizzwizz4 5y ago
  What isn't connected to Jewish history? Let's see… Christianity's out, as is everything influenced by that. Same with Islam. Considering conquerers, trade, settlement – even just the impact of the United States – that leaves… not very much. The atrocities of WWII are more recent than the start of Jewish history, but it's called “World War II” for a reason. Think of the impact of the Geneva Conventions, for just one example.
  - joelbluminator 5y ago
    A lot of things are not connected to Jewish history, especially not recent Jewish history. We are not that important.
    - wizzwizz4 5y ago
      They would've happened very differently if Judaism wasn't a thing, so I'd say they were connected. Judaism is at about as important as the Roman empire, or the people who introduced horses to the Americas – though perhaps less important than the people who crossed the Beringa land bridge.

joelbluminator 5y ago

Steer what to where? Are you saying Israel's history and present are not connected to Jewish history and the 20th century atrocities? That's an extremely bizarre position to hold.

luffapi 5y ago
The Balfour Declaration was well before WWII. Israel was always a colonization project.
- bzbarsky 5y ago
  Anti-semitism, including of the extremely violent variety, did not start with WWII. The Balfour Declaration was a response to Jews wanting to get the hell out of a Europe that hated them and liked to go kill them every so often.
  - luffapi 5y ago
    The Balfour Declaration was a request from a banker so powerful that he could order the British government to create a new colony. It has nothing to do with anti-semitism. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfour_Declaration https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfour_Declaration
    - joelbluminator 5y ago
      Why is the Balfour Declaration a main point in your argument? It could have not happen and yet Jews would still have been desperate to find a state of their own. I am not sure how it relates to anything besides it being a piccant topic (a powerful banker!)
      - luffapi 5y ago
        The Balfour Declaration is the foundation of Israel, of course it should be the main point of any discussion of the region.
    - bzbarsky 5y ago
      > It has nothing to do with anti-semitism. Anti-semitism has nothing to do with the movement to create a homeland for the Jewish people (which then tried to garner the support of various governments, which is where the Balfour Declaration comes in)? It has everything to do with it. Were there various colonialism-related issues involved too, of course. But pretending like that's the entire story is quite disingenuous.
      - luffapi 5y ago
        > create a homeland for the Jewish people This is clearly colonialism by definition. It’s the entire story because there is no justification for oppressing and colonizing others, even if the people doing it also face discrimination. It’s not an excuse and shouldn’t be part of the conversation.
        joelbluminator 5y ago
        Its really not though, the declaration never went into specifics on what parts will become Jewish exactly for this reason. It said a Jewish home IN Plaestine, not that all of Palestine will become Jewish. And even if it is "the definition of colonialism", what does it have to do with anything now?
        luffapi 5y ago
        A colony is the establishment of a new state on or in territory occupied by someone else. This is as textbook a case of colonialism as there is. > And even if it is "the definition of colonialism", what does it have to do with anything now? It’s literally the basis for every problem we’re discussing. Israel didn’t magically become not a colony, it’s enforced its apartheid state since it was created by western superpowers.
        joelbluminator 5y ago
        > A colony is the establishment of a new state on or in territory occupied by someone else That's you interpreting Balfour / Zionism the way you see fit, there were movements in Zionism that wanted to split the land, in fact the main movement wanted to split the land since 1937 for sure (agreeing to the Peel committee split plan) and maybe even before that. But the declaration itself just says - a national Jewish home in Palestine. There were unoccupied territories in Palestine 100 years ago. In fact there still are, even when this tiny land inhabits 15 million people and not just 1.5 millions like 100 years ago. If Balfour wanted to say explicitly that all of Palestine is to become Jewish he would have said so. It doesn't even say a state or a country, just a "national home". You're attributing to Balfour more than what was written.
wizzwizz4 5y ago
What isn't connected to Jewish history? Let's see… Christianity's out, as is everything influenced by that. Same with Islam. Considering conquerers, trade, settlement – even just the impact of the United States – that leaves… not very much. The atrocities of WWII are more recent than the start of Jewish history, but it's called “World War II” for a reason. Think of the impact of the Geneva Conventions, for just one example.
- joelbluminator 5y ago
  A lot of things are not connected to Jewish history, especially not recent Jewish history. We are not that important.
  - wizzwizz4 5y ago
    They would've happened very differently if Judaism wasn't a thing, so I'd say they were connected. Judaism is at about as important as the Roman empire, or the people who introduced horses to the Americas – though perhaps less important than the people who crossed the Beringa land bridge.